Oftencold

Oh? how does one create a concept of justice or rights in a secular model? I have never heard a good answer to this. It would seem to me that only privileges can be offered by a purely secular frame of reference.

In other words, for example, in a non-religious outlook, how can one show that an individual without the capacity to serve the state, a crippled person for instance, has anything like a set of "inalienable rights"

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scourge99

Because empathy is not contingent upon your God.
Because reciprocity is not contingent upon your God.
Because society is not contingent upon your God.
These are only contingent upon our ability to THINK for ourselves. To REASON for ourselves.

Tell me, does your God force you to act a certain way or do you CHOOSE to act a certain way based upon your beliefs? Why would an atheist be any different except without the unnecessary middle man known as God?

Furthermore, your God is immoral and despicable. He previously and/or currently advocates slavery, advocates child sacrifice, advocates the subjugation of woman, praises genocide, and rejects homosexuality. Present day secular ethics are in almost every way superior to the bronze age atrocities celebrated within the Bible.

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Oftencold

But what if I have no empathy? Or if I do, but consider it a personal weakness? What if I believe that only the strong should rule, and that the weak are property?

Thought tells me, in the absense of a larger framework that no suffering survives death, and so the most merciful of all acts is to kill, for not even the memory of pain would endure.

Logic and reason tell me that only my needs are real, that other people are mere collections of organized atoms, and may be treated as any other property or object.


By the way, the examples you cite so inexpertly, show remarkable shallowness and lack of understanding of the source material, just so you know. I'd suggest a lot more study, if you want to avoid embarrassment.

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aps

I think they discourage education because they know that the smarter someone becomes, the more he/she will question the religion. They don't want that! I worked at a bank back in the 1980s with a bunch of JW's. I was a devout Catholic at the time, and I was stunned by their obsession with their religion and their preaching. Give me a break. I watched one guy whom I really liked turn into a religious nutjob once he joined them. Sigh. It was heartbreaking to watch.

liblady

new light, old light, it's a cult. as are most organized religions, really. some less harmful than others.

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the makeout hobo

A concept of rights or justice comes from recipricoal exhchange. It's illegal to kill someone because i don't want to be killed. Justice is served because it makes a better society for me to live in.

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scourge99

Then you would be an anomaly in society. Which do exist. We call these people psychopaths. I'm sure some of our resident psychologists could explain this better than I could.

Its a fact that we are empathetic towards others. Sometimes to people we don't even know or have no relation to. Most theists agree but they attempt to spin it as proof of some type of morality created by God.

We are discussing secular ethics and as such we are required to substantiate claims when challenged. I am challenging the basis for which anyone could claim that empathy is a personal weakness.

Why would you believe that? On what basis do you think that is a valid claim.

What you have done here is
a) bastardized a virtue known as "mercy"
b) claimed that your raison d'etre is focused solely upon this bastardized concept of mercy.

Do you deny that:
1) Every person has their own feelings and desires.
2) When I look inward to my own desires, I fundamentally desire to pursue happiness and avoid pain and suffering.
3) Other people have these same basic desires, and these desires are valuable to them.

By killing another despite their wishes, what you are effectively saying is that:
1) You don't care about the desires and wishes of others.
2) Your desires and wishes supersede other's desires and wishes in all matters.

That does not follow. How is it that your needs are real but other people's needs aren't? Are you claiming that you are the only REAL person? That everyone else is an illusion?

This is nothing but an ad hominem and a pathetic one at that. Its quite telling when you end your post with such a childish rant.

I suggest that you:
1) back up your claims because this a debate forum.
2) cease the use of ad hominems because it is against forum rules.
3) keep your comments civil or keep them to yourself.

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Jerry

Uh, not from pamphlets, I know that much.

Oh, is that how you want to play, ok then....

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Jerry

Hmm I think you're right, but don't they also have some additional manuscript...something about Jesus visiting America back in the day, or some such?

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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
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Jerry

Jehovah's Witnesses do not represent all religion per-se across the globe. That's like using Scientology to represent the entire scientific community. Also, religion was never supposed to do what the hard natural sciences do, so your complaint is pretty irrelevant to the OP.

__________________
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
~~Thomas Jefferson