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Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind is S

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andersbranderud

Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). [Source: www.netzarim.co.il]

Religions that contradict" תורה (Torah), therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

"....No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). [Source: www.netzarim.co.il]

Religions that contradict" תורה (Torah), therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

What a load of CRAP!

The Universe is not in any way "Perfectly ordered".. it's a Mess.

Expanding in all directions (we/YOU know this from science NOT a God or a Morality Play Book some jerks wrote called the bible/OT/NT), Galaxies, Asteroids, Planets and stars Colliding. Black holes, etc.

NO Perfect earth at the center of any universe ....Religion's postulate until science Porked that too.

If a God created the "perfect universe" it would be a constant with 'His' man's earth at the center for our viewing pleasure.. perhaps with some symmetry, not the RANDOM spaced/Chaotic galaxies throughout.
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Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

To summarize your argument without all the pseudoscience...

"Nothing can come out of nothing, and as the universe must have had a beginning, it must have come from something, that "something" being the Creator."

Of course, an alternative explaination is that universe came from a previous universe or that the universe has expanded and collapsed endlessly and will continue to do so.

And while you seem content to argue that the universe could not have just always existed or have come from nothing, what you fail to explain is why this "Creator" could manage to just always have existed or have come from nothing. Or does your reason not apply to this "Creator' just as it does the universe?
 
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Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

Thought this wold be about beer or sex :(
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

1. Of course, an alternative explaination is that universe came from a previous universe or that the universe has expanded and collapsed endlessly and will continue to do so.

2. And while you seem content to argue that the universe could not have just always existed or have come from nothing, what you fail to explain is why this "Creator" could manage to just always have existed or have come from nothing. Or does your reason not apply to this "Creator' just as it does the universe?
The same fact replies to both questions: endless regression is impossible.

Thus,

1. endless regression of universes is impossible.
2. endless regression of Creators is impossible.

There is 1 universe and there is 1 Creator.




Generally it is all in arithmetic.
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

What a load of CRAP!

The Universe is not in any way "Perfectly ordered".. it's a Mess.

Expanding in all directions (we/YOU know this from science NOT a God or a Morality Play Book some jerks wrote called the bible/OT/NT), Galaxies, Asteroids, Planets and stars Colliding. Black holes, etc.

NO Perfect earth at the center of any universe ....Religion's postulate until science Porked that too.

If a God created the "perfect universe" it would be a constant with 'His' man's earth at the center for our viewing pleasure.. perhaps with some symmetry, not the RANDOM spaced/Chaotic galaxies throughout.
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God did not create the universe or anything it perfect. It is a temporary creation.

Moe
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

God did not create the universe or anything it perfect. It is a temporary creation.

Moe

You take it personally, - but it is not about you.

It is in reference to

"Therefore power and knowledge are perfections and insofar as they belong to God, have no limits. Hence it follows that God, who possesses supreme and infinite wisdom, acts in the most perfect way and does this not only in a metaphysical but also in a moral sense. With respect to ourselves we can also express this as follows: the more enlightened and informed we are about the works of God, the more we shall be inclined to find them excellent and in entire conformity with everything which might have been desired."

God has chosen [to create] the most perfect world, that is, the one which is at the same time the simplest in hypotheses and the richest in phenomena, as might be a line in geometry whose construction is easy and whose properties and effects are extremely remarkable and widespread."
[Hence the universe is NOT a mess]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz]Gottfried Leibniz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

God is the universe.

Tah duh.

1=1.

:mrgreen:
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

You take it personally, - but it is not about you.


No I was commenting on mbigs,

Originally Posted by mbig
What a load of CRAP!

The Universe is not in any way "Perfectly ordered".. it's a Mess.

Expanding in all directions (we/YOU know this from science NOT a God or a Morality Play Book some jerks wrote called the bible/OT/NT), Galaxies, Asteroids, Planets and stars Colliding. Black holes, etc.

NO Perfect earth at the center of any universe ....Religion's postulate until science Porked that too.

If a God created the "perfect universe" it would be a constant with 'His' man's earth at the center for our viewing pleasure.. perhaps with some symmetry, not the RANDOM spaced/Chaotic galaxies throughout.

Nothing to do with you at all really:2wave:
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

The same fact replies to both questions: endless regression is impossible.

If endless regression is impossible, then that means that endless progression is impossible as well. There is no way we can put boundaries on one end, without putting those same boundaries on the other. So much for that eternal life.

Or we can realize that space and time as we know it could very well be non-linear (as some famous guy postulated what 70, 80 years ago?), and as such could easily be without beginning or end.
 
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Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

God did not create the universe or anything it perfect. It is a temporary creation.

Moe
You had No response to the OP which used "perfectly" many times.. except a thanks. No correction just 'thanks.'
I pointed that out to the bizarre OP, the Universe Is NOT "perfectly ordered".

And how do you know God creating Anything?

The only thing Certain is that Man created God/Gods.. Tens of Thousands of them to explain what his Insecure mind couldn't explain. Still.
-
 
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Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

God did not create the universe or anything it perfect. It is a temporary creation.

Moe

Okay...let me get this straight. So God in your own words did not create the universe. BUT the universe is a temporary creation? Okay, what created this temporary creation?
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

This OP is a PERFECT example of why atheists have such a hard time not using the word "stupid" to describe theists. :doh
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

Okay...let me get this straight. So God in your own words did not create the universe. BUT the universe is a temporary creation? Okay, what created this temporary creation?

I did not say that God did not create this universe. I said that it is not a perfect creation. Look at the creation verses in Genesis.

Ge 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Very good is not perfect. The bible tells us that this creation will be destroyed and replaced with a better creation.

Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more

If this creation were perfect, Then how would it be possible to create a better one?

This creation is "perfect" only in the sense that it fits Gods long range plans perfectly. It is intended to be only temporary and in that respect it is the perfect temporary dwelling place for man

Moe
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

If endless regression is impossible, then that means that endless progression is impossible as well. There is no way we can put boundaries on one end, without putting those same boundaries on the other. So much for that eternal life.

Or we can realize that space and time as we know it could very well be non-linear (as some famous guy postulated what 70, 80 years ago?), and as such could easily be without beginning or end.

Bibically this is not a problem because the bible teaches that this universe will end.

Moe
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

You had No response to the OP which used "perfectly" many times.. except a thanks. No correction just 'thanks.'
I pointed that out to the bizarre OP, the Universe Is NOT "perfectly ordered".

And how do you know God creating Anything?

The only thing Certain is that Man created God/Gods.. Tens of Thousands of them to explain what his Insecure mind couldn't explain. Still.
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Perfectly suited for its intended purpose. Although not perfectly ordered it is perfectly suited to sustain life. Again the bible tells us that man did create gods. This is true.

The bible itself makes it no secret that the written Torah was delivered at Sinai long after many other belief systems legal code etc were already established. Modern scholars like to say that there was no divine revelation involved but rather the early Jews simply copied everything from the surrounding cultures.

But where did the earlier cultures get their information from? Before the Exodus there were no Jews. The early chapters of Genesis show us that there was an early knowledge of God. This knowledge was lost and manmade constructs took its place. Early kings and Pharaohs had a knowledge of God but also were already practicing idolatry

Ge 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
Ge 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Ge 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

A similar story is recorded with a Pharaoh of Abrahams day.

Ge 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Ge 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

Several hundred years later this knowledge of God had fallen by the wayside.

Ex 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go ? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

This Pharaoh had no knowledge of God. The Philistines became bitter enemies of the Israel etc. A major part of the creation of Israel was to bring back into remembrance the true God via the restoration of the Torah.

So yes I thanked the post because I agree with a very large portion of what the post states. I do not think that there is any forum rule that states that I must 100% agree with a post before I am allowed to thank it or that if I do thank it that I am required to inform other forum members of why I did so.

Moe
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

I did not say that God did not create this universe.

Okay, but you did say that God did not create the universe. If God did not create this universe, what did?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...hat-his-purpose-mankind-s.html#post1058243832

I said that it is not a perfect creation. Look at the creation verses in Genesis.

Ge 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Very good is not perfect. The bible tells us that this creation will be destroyed and replaced with a better creation.

Okay. Try explain this to me.

God is perfect yes? (Stop me at any point)
Therefore to be perfect, all of God must be perfect.
Therefore, since God's will is part of God, it must be perfect.
Can a will that is perfect and therefore by definition of perfect, incapable of producing anything other than perfection, make something less than perfection?

Perfect is by definition free of any defects. Therefore, such a will can only be capable of producing perfect creations. Thus, you would be correct that such a God did not create this universe as things are not perfect.

This creation is "perfect" only in the sense that it fits Gods long range plans perfectly. It is intended to be only temporary and in that respect it is the perfect temporary dwelling place for man

Moe

Huh? You are really confusing me. First you said that God did not create the universe, then you clarified and said he did not create this universe, but then you cite the Bible saying he DID create this less than perfect universe.

Can I get a clarification that doesn't make things even more confusing?
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

Okay. Try explain this to me.

God is perfect yes? (Stop me at any point)
Therefore to be perfect, all of God must be perfect.
Therefore, since God's will is part of God, it must be perfect.
Can a will that is perfect and therefore by definition of perfect, incapable of producing anything other than perfection, make something less than perfection?

Perfect is by definition free of any defects. Therefore, such a will can only be capable of producing perfect creations. Thus, you would be correct that such a God did not create this universe as things are not perfect.
You cite only one possible meaning for the word perfection.

perfect - definition of perfect by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

per·fect (pûrfkt)
adj.
1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
5.
a. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
b. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
6. Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
7. Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
8. Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.
9. Botany Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.
10. Grammar Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.
11. Music Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.
n.
1. Grammar The perfect tense.
2. A verb or verb form in the perfect tense.
tr.v. (pr-fkt) per·fect·ed, per·fect·ing, per·fects
To bring to perfection or completion.

You are focusing on definition #2. I am using perfect as it is stated in definitions 1 and 4.

Huh? You are really confusing me. First you said that God did not create the universe, then you clarified and said he did not create this universe, but then you cite the Bible saying he DID create this less than perfect universe.

Can I get a clarification that doesn't make things even more confusing?

God did not create the universe or anything it perfect. It is a temporary creation.

Moe

I think if you look it is rather obvious that I made a typo.


I intended to type,

God did not create the universe or anything in it perfect. It is a temporary creation.

Moe
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

Speaking for God is always a dangerous proposition, especially for us apes who only just climbed down from the trees on a planet that only just melted up in a recent only just star.

I will let God do all the speaking, in a language known as transcendence.
 
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Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

We're all so very glad that you know the intimate details of the mind of a God you assure us does not exist, and have an itinerary and operations manual worked out for Him.

I used to be offended at this sort of vulgar expostulation. Then as the years went by , I became saddened.

Now I'm amused.
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

God is the universe.

Tah duh.

1=1.

:mrgreen:
And the cat says:

Man is the can opener.

Me-ow.

1=1.

icon_mrgreen.gif
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

You had No response to the OP which used "perfectly" many times.. except a thanks. No correction just 'thanks.'
I pointed that out to the bizarre OP, the Universe Is NOT "perfectly ordered".

And how do you know God creating Anything?

The only thing Certain is that Man created God/Gods.. Tens of Thousands of them to explain what his Insecure mind couldn't explain. Still.
-
Of course the Universe is perfectly ordered. It is a perfectly ordered example of precisely what it is, how could it be otherwise?
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

You are focusing on definition #2. I am using perfect as it is stated in definitions 1 and 4.

Moe

I don’t think so.

You are using definitions which are not related to the meaning of the statement your quoted for your reply. You compare good vs. perfect in an extremely narrow meaning.


good (g d)
adj. bet•ter (b t r), best (b st)
1. Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor: a good experience; good news from the hospital.
2.
a. Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing: a good exterior paint; a good joke.
b. Serving the desired purpose or end; suitable: Is this a good dress for the party?


As you can see b. is pretty much in line with 1. and 4.

Moreover you are replying to the post using perfect in a meaning you don’t see and don’t reply to, - you don’t see a perfect order vs. total mess.

As to your meaning, - could God’s creation be perfect if it includes evil created by God? The perfection of God, argues Leibniz created evil so you would know and conceive what is good and what is the perfection of good, - it is God himself.
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

If endless regression is impossible, then that means that endless progression is impossible as well. There is no way we can put boundaries on one end, without putting those same boundaries on the other. So much for that eternal life.


You skipped one very important detail in my post, - so you are ignoring arithmetic.

In the universe you count material thing giving them numbers, and prescribing physical laws by using numbers. However if you wish to continue counting and adding universes you cannot do it infinitely, because infinity cannot be counted in numbers, it is a separate entity. Thus, however is large the number of the universes it may be represented as one entity.

On other hand the entity of infinity ( which is very roughly represent the entity we call God) includes in itself all possible numbers but it is totally illiterate to try to make to make regression or progression in these numbers asking who created God, and who created God who created God for infinity cannot be separated into a number of entities.

For more details refer to Georg Cantor

''The actual infinite arises in three contexts: first when it is realized in the most complete form, in a fully independent otherworldly being, in Deo, where I call it the Absolute Infinite or simply Absolute; second when it occurs in the contingent, created world; third when the mind grasps it in abstracto as a mathematical magnitude, number or order type.”


''The fear of infinity is a form of myopia that destroys the possibility of seeing the actual infinite, even though it in its highest form has created and sustains us, and in its secondary transfinite forms occurs all around us and even inhabits our minds.”


Georg Cantor was a German mathematician, born in Russia. He is best known as the creator of set theory, which has become a fundamental theory in mathematics.

Or we can realize that space and time as we know it could very well be non-linear (as some famous guy postulated what 70, 80 years ago?), and as such could easily be without beginning or end.

As you know you can postulate anything ignoring basic arithmetic and basic laws of physics, as long as it pleases aggressive groups of people who have inabilities to physics and arithmetic they will create scientific community and will push your postulates to be accepted by scientific community where each of them calls himself we.
 
Re: Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind

I don’t think so.

You are using definitions which are not related to the meaning of the statement your quoted for your reply. You compare good vs. perfect in an extremely narrow meaning.


good (g d)
adj. bet•ter (b t r), best (b st)
1. Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor: a good experience; good news from the hospital.
2.
a. Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing: a good exterior paint; a good joke.
b. Serving the desired purpose or end; suitable: Is this a good dress for the party?


As you can see b. is pretty much in line with 1. and 4.

Moreover you are replying to the post using perfect in a meaning you don’t see and don’t reply to, - you don’t see a perfect order vs. total mess.

As to your meaning, - could God’s creation be perfect if it includes evil created by God? The perfection of God, argues Leibniz created evil so you would know and conceive what is good and what is the perfection of good, - it is God himself.

I am answering obvious childs post. I am not sure what it is you are trying to say to me. It seems to me that you are trying to say the same thing to me that I am saying to obvious child.

Moe
 
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