Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

Graffight · 12-15-08, 11:57 AM

Here's an interesting post i just read from John Shore. He has some really good perspective on Christianity, I agree with a lot of what he says. Enjoy

Here's an interesting post by John Shore

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Shore

Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer
In Atheists, Christianity, God, Religion on December 14, 2008 at 12:12 am

It’s certainly no challenge for a rationalist/atheist to dismiss out of hand those who believe in God.

The Christian, scoffs the rationalist, is weak-willed: superstitious, deaf to logic, incapable of independent thought, intellectually and even morally lazy.

Okay. We believers can take that sort of criticism. We can (or certainly should) even acknowledge the ways in which we too often facilitate non-believers reaching such conclusions about us.

But, to be fair, rationalists and atheists should consider the validity of the believer’s way. A clear context in which to understand the whole of one’s life, as opposed to just that realm of it apprehensible to the rational mind, is a beautiful thing.

The logical mind can do and cover a lot—but not all. Before love, for instance, it can only surrender in baffled awe.

The bottom line is that when the white knight of the rational mind reaches the dense forest of human emotion, it must pull its horse up short, turn around, and trot back home. It has no business inside that forest; a few trees in renders it lost and helpless.

For all his shortcomings, the believer possesses one thing the non-believer lacks: a clear, dependable context by which to understand, process, and experience all of his emotions. That’s not nothing.

DarkWizard12 · 12-15-08, 01:19 PM

*DarkWizard12 Subscribes to this thread.

Ikari · 12-15-08, 01:27 PM

It's pretty pretentious first off to make some claim as if the whole of atheists/rationalists have a holier-than-thou attitude towards theists. Secondly, that we are incapable of understanding with or dealing with emotions.

scourge99 · 12-15-08, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

Here's an interesting post i just read from John Shore. He has some really good perspective on Christianity, I agree with a lot of what he says. Enjoy

Here's an interesting post by John Shore

The problem is most believers don't care to debate, they just want you to believe without showing a clear path of reason to believe.

On the contrary, most atheists will debate WHY one should not believe with specific reasoning.

Graffight · 12-15-08, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scourge99

The problem is most believers don't care to debate, they just want you to believe without showing a clear path of reason to believe.

On the contrary, most atheists will debate WHY one should not believe with specific reasoning.

I think the thing with this is that believers find this to be a non "debatable" issue. belief is belief(not sure if that's a "problem" or not)...for me to "debate" with you about who's idea is correct would be (to quote an analogy used by a commenter on John's Blog) like trying to debate what color is with a blind man who never experienced it. further than that most Christians see it as it would be more like debating color with someone who's only reason for not seeing color is because they never opened their eyes. Debating one's belief in God is like debating one's emotions.

As a Christian all i can do is teach you, and try to show you where you can find the answers to your questions yourself. What happens with most non believers is that they look for reasons not to believe and seek information with closed eyes, a closed mind and a closed heart thus a debate with one is an exercise in futility.

Graffight · 12-15-08, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikari

It's pretty pretentious first off to make some claim as if the whole of atheists/rationalists have a holier-than-thou attitude towards theists. Secondly, that we are incapable of understanding with or dealing with emotions.

Here's the reply John had for that question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Shore

J.J. I’m of course not asserting the absurdity that non-believers don’t have or appreciate emotions. I’m only saying that any God-based belief system that addresses the entirety of the human experience–including emotions, which are the most inexplicable part of the human experience–can be a comfort and even intellectual touchstone (or at any rate a very valuabe life tool) for the believer that the non-believer simply lacks. A Christian experiences love, and understands it as reflective of God’s love. A Christian grieves, and is comforted by God. He faces death himself, and is assured of God’s presence with him. In all those sorts of hyper-dense emotions, the atheist is on his own, while the believer is not. Hence the old saying about there being no atheists in foxholes.

The thing i hear so much of from atheists is how rationale and logic are missing from Religion simply because all beliefs and decisions are not made with these two thought processes. Atheists assert that because there is no "proof" then said thing cannot exist. I think what this guy is offering is that there are more faculties humans have available to them for processing information and making decisions than just logic and reason. I personally believe that i should have all of my faculties at the ready when i think, and not throw some out because they don't make sense in said situation, and i believe God gives me a better ground for understanding my emotions than i do on my own. Without God love is very hard to explain, especially for someone who has not experienced it...All Christians have God's love, and guide for how to Love in the Bible, this is something that the Atheist does not possess in the same capacity, and must rely on other people to build their emotional foundation on, and depending on those people one foundation can be totally different than another.

Kernel Sanders · 12-15-08, 02:21 PM

In what ways do western religions such as Christianity help to understand emotions? I could see that argument being applied to Buddhism perhaps, but in my years in the Church I never encountered any sort of explanation of human emotions

EgoffTib · 12-15-08, 02:55 PM

John Shore talks about religious people having God with them through tough times. I guess the difference is that certain believers need that knowledge.

When in tough times, I am far from alone. I have erected a strong support system of family and friends who are there for me when I need consolation.

MrFungus420 · 12-15-08, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

I think the thing with this is that believers find this to be a non "debatable" issue. belief is belief(not sure if that's a "problem" or not)...for me to "debate" with you about who's idea is correct would be (to quote an analogy used by a commenter on John's Blog) like trying to debate what color is with a blind man who never experienced it. further than that most Christians see it as it would be more like debating color with someone who's only reason for not seeing color is because they never opened their eyes. Debating one's belief in God is like debating one's emotions.

The biggest difference, of course, is that people don't expect others to live according to their emotions. People don't tell others, "Your emotions are wrong, and you will be punished for all of eternity because your emotions are not my emotions".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

As a Christian all i can do is teach you, and try to show you where you can find the answers to your questions yourself.

Fine. Show us facts and evidence.

Don't point us to a book of mythology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

What happens with most non believers is that they look for reasons not to believe and seek information with closed eyes, a closed mind and a closed heart thus a debate with one is an exercise in futility.

Evidence.

That's all that you need.

Appealing to emotion doesn't work. Arguments from incredulity don't work. And personal insults (closed mind, closed heart, closed eyes) don't work.

As for looking for reasons not to believe, it is amazing that you know how all non-believers think

Like I said, evidence. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many times a believer has tried to convince me, but was totally and completely unable to provide ANY evidence to support their claims. I could, however, easily tell you how many times a believer has backed up their claims with evidence: 0.

As for the article in the OP, pure arrogance.

MrFungus420 · 12-15-08, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

All Christians have God's love, and guide for how to Love in the Bible,

I'm going to address this claim.

How does the Bible teach us to love?

If your children don't love you, you should make a place of torture for them and send them there to be tortured for not loving you.

If your children do not act how you want them to, you are justified in killing them.

If you want your children to live somewhere, then you can commit genocide to give them that land.

You can have your child killed to make up for the crime of a distant relative.

All of these are examples of "God's love" in the Bible.

12-15-08, 01:19 PM	#2
DarkWizard12 Conservative Independent Join Date: Sep 2007 Last Seen: Today 12:23 PM Location: Tyler TX Posts: 5,539 Thanks: 2,639 Thanked 1,270 Times in 833 Posts Lean: Independent Gender:	Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer *DarkWizard12 Subscribes to this thread.

12-15-08, 01:27 PM	#3
Ikari Sage Join Date: Dec 2006 Last Seen: Today 12:07 PM Location: Colorado Posts: 9,211 Thanks: 709 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,512 Posts Lean: Libertarian Gender:	Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer It's pretty pretentious first off to make some claim as if the whole of atheists/rationalists have a holier-than-thou attitude towards theists. Secondly, that we are incapable of understanding with or dealing with emotions.
	__________________ WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

12-15-08, 02:21 PM	#7
Kernel Sanders Norville Rogers Join Date: Jul 2008 Last Seen: Today 12:32 AM Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 3,380 Thanks: 2,160 Thanked 1,716 Times in 905 Posts Gender:	Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer In what ways do western religions such as Christianity help to understand emotions? I could see that argument being applied to Buddhism perhaps, but in my years in the Church I never encountered any sort of explanation of human emotions

12-15-08, 02:55 PM	#8
EgoffTib DP's Resident Pansychist Join Date: Sep 2008 Last Seen: Yesterday 04:01 PM Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 5,848 Thanks: 4,069 Thanked 1,747 Times in 1,206 Posts Lean: Libertarian Gender:	Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer John Shore talks about religious people having God with them through tough times. I guess the difference is that certain believers need that knowledge. When in tough times, I am far from alone. I have erected a strong support system of family and friends who are there for me when I need consolation.
	__________________ "With your birth, the universe changed. The God-mind saw itself as never before. In your ears, all sound was re-created. With you, The One unfolds a new story."

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