Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

Graffight · 12-17-08, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoffTib

Your argument is flawed. If a parent raises their child to be well mannered and then brutally murders an old lady, it's the parent's fault for not raising their kid properly?

not necessarily, but often times it is...children raised by certain types of parents and in certain environments are FAR less likely to do this type of thing. You always here about the people who commit terrible acts as having some sort of messed up past...

EgoffTib · 12-17-08, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Belle

Remember when I said there was something I couldn't translate to a non-believer? This is it. The only right law is God's law. Your example doesn't even seem to grasp the point, and someone a lot better than me would have to explain it, but it's sooo simple...:/

Defying logic may be simple to you, but not I. You said that it was okay for a CHILD to be punished for his PARENT'S mistakes. You then justified it by saying that parents should raise their children better. That argument is so far from sensible that it's not even amusing.

EgoffTib · 12-17-08, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

not necessarily, but often times it is...children raised by certain types of parents and in certain environments are FAR less likely to do this type of thing. You always here about the people who commit terrible acts as having some sort of messed up past...

Do what thing? She said that it was okay for a child to be punished for the PARENTS mistake. That would mean that the parent would be the one making the mistake, not the child. Yet the child is reprimanded for it.

DarkWizard12 · 12-17-08, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Belle

Oh, thank you, you are right. I guess I was thinking too narrowly, like God doesn't kill children because of something an adult does anymore, because of Christ, but yes, you are right. Look how bad this generation is, and it will get much much worse.

Not really. As a keen observer of my fellow generation, I can say with full certainty that this generation will be much better off than the generation before it. If you noticed, since the 1960's, society (in the US) has been inching its way back to the more conservative values of the past, if ever so slowly.

Graffight · 12-17-08, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moe

What you are talking about is called generational sin and that has not really changed. basically it means that the next generation will be more wicked than the generation before it. Not only would they continue to practice the sins passed on to them from their fathers but they would invent new ones and pass them on to their own children That did not stop with the coming of Christ.

The Old Testament also made provision to break the curse of generational sin.

Eze 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

Eze 18:15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

Eze 18:16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

The generational curse is not something that God inflicts upon us but rather something that we inflict upon ourselves. The whole chapter of Ezekiel 18 pretty much deals with this issue

Moe

It's wonderful to see people who really study and have put in the time...I want to get to this point in my study and understanding

Talking to people like this guy made me want to learn how to actually read the bible.

DarkWizard12 · 12-17-08, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graffight

It's wonderful to see people who really study and have put in the time...I want to get to this point in my study and understanding

Talking to people like this guy made me want to learn how to actually read the bible.

The mind is like iron, you sharpen it by rubbing 2 of them against each other!

Graffight · 12-17-08, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoffTib

Do what thing? She said that it was okay for a child to be punished for the PARENTS mistake. That would mean that the parent would be the one making the mistake, not the child. Yet the child is reprimanded for it.

What she's saying is it's not God that causes the children to be punished for the parents mistakes...Sin causes it's own punishment most of the time...if you are raised by sinners you are more likely to take on their sins...In effect the parents are punishing their children for their own sins. That's why stuff like drinking and smoking gets passed down generation to generation. Most of the time the sin brings it's own consequences....Sin is an epidemic and it spreads like one from generation to generation and it get's worse as time goes on until someone breaks the cycle trough God's Grace.

Graffight · 12-17-08, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

Not really. As a keen observer of my fellow generation, I can say with full certainty that this generation will be much better off than the generation before it. If you noticed, since the 1960's, society (in the US) has been inching its way back to the more conservative values of the past, if ever so slowly.

yeah i think it is...i think we're going to see a major return of family values.

Southern Belle · 12-17-08, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoffTib

Do what thing? She said that it was okay for a child to be punished for the PARENTS mistake. That would mean that the parent would be the one making the mistake, not the child. Yet the child is reprimanded for it.

Okay, let me try...

Oh, I think it's a culture difference. In the Bible, children were extentions of the parents, and that's how God saw them. If the parents were good and followed the law, then they would bring their children up to do the same, and if those children grew up and fell away, their children had a harder time, so they were wicked because of their parents. Now after Christ, we are all individuals, but yes sin does get worse with each generation.

Your example of "manners" and then "murder" doesn't really even come close to why God's laws were what they were, that was the part I couldn't explain...

Southern Belle · 12-17-08, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

Not really. As a keen observer of my fellow generation, I can say with full certainty that this generation will be much better off than the generation before it. If you noticed, since the 1960's, society (in the US) has been inching its way back to the more conservative values of the past, if ever so slowly.

It doesn't really feel that way to me right now, but I do hope you are right.

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moe, Southern Belle