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Texas investigators stunned by child dismemberment

7thKeeper

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Texas investigators stunned by child dismemberment

SAN ANTONIO – The scene was so gruesome investigators could barely speak: A 3 1/2-week-old boy lay dismembered in the bedroom of a single-story house, three of his tiny toes chewed off, his face torn away, his head severed and his brains ripped out.

"At this particular scene you could have heard a pin drop," San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said Monday. "No one was speaking. It was about as somber as it could have been."

Officers called to the home early Sunday found the boy's mother, Otty Sanchez, sitting on the couch with a self-inflicted wound to her chest and her throat partially slashed, screaming "I killed my baby! I killed my baby!" police said. She told officers the devil made her do it, police said.

:shock:

I have to admit right off the bat that the description the article started with did silence me for a while.

The article later pointed out the event where a mother had drowned her children to "save them from Satan" and was later found not guilty, because she was suffering from post-partum psychosis. I guess I would like the discussion to be at least partially about not finding people guilty because they were concidered to be insane at the moment of the act. While I accept that there is validity behind that reasoning, in cases like this one where I can't even find suitable words to describe it myself right now, though I'm sure I'll find some, I do feel torn. Just the nature of what happened is so horrible that it's hard for that arguement about insanity to sway your reaction.

Would justice (moral rather than legal I suppose) be better served by the harhest of punishments for the deed or would it be better served by trying to bring lucidity into the womans life? I must admit that I'm not very aware of the nature of post-partum psychosis, so I don't know if it's long lasting or something that subsides with time.
 
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I know what you mean. After Andrea Yates, I didn't think I could be shocked by much else, but when I read the details of this case, I found myself shocked and utterly sickened.

Like Andrea Yates, this baby's mother also had a history of severe mental illness, which made it much more likely that she would experience postpartum psychosis. Many people will say that her words are a convenient excuse meant to clear her of responsibility and consequences for her actions, but the truth is that she likely had a break with reality as you and I know it. I honestly do not know how justice would best be served, except to say that in such cases, I am against the death penalty, and obviously she should never have her freedom or another child. She will have to live with this for the rest of her life. I doubt I could if it were me.

Right now, all I can think about is that defenseless, innocent baby. Rest in peace, tiny one. :cry:
 
I saw the article on CNN and could not read it after the first sentence. I want to vomit.

Jeez, I am crying just thinking about it. hiswoman said it perfectly. On top of this, one of my good friends at work went to college with a woman who left her 5-month old son accidentally in her car in Florida--she came back at 5pm, and he was dead. This just happened last Thursday.
 
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I saw the article on CNN and could not read it after the first sentence. I want to vomit.

Jeez, I am crying just thinking about it. hiswoman said it perfectly. On top of this, one of my good friends at work went to college with a woman who left her 5-month old son accidentally in her car in Florida--she came back at 5pm, and he was dead. This just happened last Thursday.

Omg, how awful! We had a similar incident at a new hospital across from my old subdivision. One of the workers went in for her shift, forgetting that her child was in the car, with predictable tragic consequences. Life is so brutal sometimes. :cry: :cry:
 
Tragedy doesn't seem adequate to describe some situations this being near the top of list. First from my point of view this is a clear case of EVIL not caused by some supernatural source by human based evil that comes from a demented mind. What the ultimate cause of this if up to highly trained Doctors. Our job as I see it is to realize this detachment from reality can happen to many more people than we may imagine and we should have included in our education a little time spent that might help us pick up on signd that may point to the need ofr help for the less fortunate who for what ever reason fall victim to this type of detachment from reality.
When it comes to punishment for this type of crimes I believe states that have capital punishment as we all know Texas does have a possible verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity that spares the clearly guilty from the death penalty, and this is a case that should really require only a few minutes to come to the conclusion that this woman fits the description to a T. So she'll be institutionalized and I pray that she never really recover because if a time were to come when she could fully undersatnd what she did that alone would drive over the edge again. She should be locked up for ever and rather than be treated she should be drugged 24/7-365 and left to die at some later date. The death penalty might actually be merciful in these cases. I know they make me ill.
I can only imagine the long term effect on everyone in law enforcement and even the coroners office. It's a lucky thing for me most police agencies do not allow reporters into crime scenes until the victim is removed or editors and news directors would be pushing reporters into situations that would effect them more than they do already by just having to hear gruesome details and then decide what is suitable for public consumption. For some it's a tough, for others no big deal.
Didn't mean to go on for ever but this one got to me.
 
The article later pointed out the event where a mother had drowned her children to "save them from Satan" and was later found not guilty, because she was suffering from post-partum psychosis.

If you're referring to Andrea Yates, I don't believe she's been found not guilty, although she was in fact suffering from post-partum psychosis.
I know of no other mother who fits the description.
She wasn't executed, she was sentenced to life.
Perhaps that's what you mean.
But being granted this amount of mercy does not mean she was found "not guilty".
It's only that we've chosen not to kill her, but to imprison her forever instead.
 
If you're referring to Andrea Yates, I don't believe she's been found not guilty, although she was in fact suffering from post-partum psychosis.
I know of no other mother who fits the description.
She wasn't executed, she was sentenced to life.
Perhaps that's what you mean.
But being granted this amount of mercy does not mean she was found "not guilty".
It's only that we've chosen not to kill her, but to imprison her forever instead.


Yes, I meant Yates. I was referring to this part of the article myself. Could be that they were referring to the death penalty and not that she wasn't convicted of anything. I checked up on wikipedia and apparently she's currently in a low security state mental hospital.

Andrea Yates drowned her five children in her Houston-area home 2001, saying she believed Satan was inside her and trying to save them from hell. Her attorneys said she had been suffering from severe postpartum psychosis, and a jury found Yates not guilty by reason of insanity in 2006.
 
We kill mad dogs.


This woman needs to be removed from society and the gene pool. I don't care if it was post-partum depression or too many Red Bulls.
 
I also saw this. I was shocked. Another random crazy ass moment in Texas history. Figures.
 
First, I'm leery of this “postpartum depression” bit. I’ve never heard of it, so I did some quick reading. It seems that there are quite a few experts that think it’s mythical, especially as a defense against murder.

That said, I have been in positions where I have witnessed garden variety insanity of high degree. If that’s the case here, then nothing but mercy and protection of the public are the correct responses.

A further point I’ll bring up.

Quite a few people have figured out that by claiming any extreme crime was the result of religious indoctrination, especially Christian, high powered defense lawyers will pop up like toast.

This is something to bear in mind in any case where the perpetrator immediately proclaims that they were made to do something by the Devil, to protect someone frow the Devil, to give their child to Gods, to get them into Heaven, etc.
 
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Well I think that this will probably end much like that previous case with the drownings. I mean, this lady is obviously completely out of her mind; and it will probably be a not guilty by reason of insanity sort of thing. I personally think it should be "guilty, but crazy".
 
Texas investigators stunned by child dismemberment



:shock:

I have to admit right off the bat that the description the article started with did silence me for a while.

The article later pointed out the event where a mother had drowned her children to "save them from Satan" and was later found not guilty, because she was suffering from post-partum psychosis. I guess I would like the discussion to be at least partially about not finding people guilty because they were concidered to be insane at the moment of the act. While I accept that there is validity behind that reasoning, in cases like this one where I can't even find suitable words to describe it myself right now, though I'm sure I'll find some, I do feel torn. Just the nature of what happened is so horrible that it's hard for that arguement about insanity to sway your reaction.

Would justice (moral rather than legal I suppose) be better served by the harhest of punishments for the deed or would it be better served by trying to bring lucidity into the womans life? I must admit that I'm not very aware of the nature of post-partum psychosis, so I don't know if it's long lasting or something that subsides with time.

I worked several infanticide cases in my career. This is more gruesome than any I've personally worked.

That said, I do not support the death penalty, so regardless of the case facts, I don't believe this woman should be murdered by the state for this crime. I believe she should be locked up for the rest of days. She should never walk the streets a free person again.

However I do believe that her mental state at the time of the crime should play a factor in her punishment. I'm not sure that intense therapy is worth the effort in her case only because she will hopefully never be free. If however a judge determines that her sentence will include eligibility date for return to society then she absolutely must be placed into a secure institution and receive therapy.
 
Well I think that this will probably end much like that previous case with the drownings. I mean, this lady is obviously completely out of her mind; and it will probably be a not guilty by reason of insanity sort of thing. I personally think it should be "guilty, but crazy".


I agree. Of course she is insane, what sane person would do this? Should that let her off the hook? HELL NO!
 
"At this particular scene you could have heard a pin drop," San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said Monday. "No one was speaking. It was about as somber as it could have been."

Officers called to the home early Sunday found the boy's mother, Otty Sanchez, sitting on the couch with a self-inflicted wound to her chest and her throat partially slashed, screaming "I killed my baby! I killed my baby!" police said. She told officers the devil made her do it, police said.

No one would do this who is sane, unless they are just evil beyond belief.

Lock her up in a room with no hard corners in a mental hospital for the rest of her life
 
She told officers the devil made her do it, police said.

How come the crazies always blame God or the devil?

I wonder about these peoples childhoods, were they brought up by religious extremists?

Do agnostics and athiests commit these kind of atrocities?

Have the flying spagetti monster and the flying pink unicorn ever been blamed for influencing someone to kill?
 
How come the crazies always blame God or the devil?

I wonder about these peoples childhoods, were they brought up by religious extremists?

Do agnostics and athiests commit these kind of atrocities?

Have the flying spagetti monster and the flying pink unicorn ever been blamed for influencing someone to kill?

Hitler, Lenin, and Jeffrey Dahmer did some pretty good damage as atheists. I understand that Dahmer might have become a born again christian in his brief prison life, Hitler used some christians who might have mistakenly thought him a god, and Lenin just did had people killed without pretense. It appears that atheists who go wrong become very efficient killers!
 
Hitler, Lenin, and Jeffrey Dahmer did some pretty good damage as atheists. I understand that Dahmer might have become a born again christian in his brief prison life, Hitler used some christians who might have mistakenly thought him a god, and Lenin just did had people killed without pretense. It appears that atheists who go wrong become very efficient killers!

None of them claimed no god as the reason for killing. I personally don't blame religion for crazy people's actions, but this "look at Hitler and Commies" excuse is completely lame and not applicable as atheism was not the reason behind the brutality.
 
Well I think that this will probably end much like that previous case with the drownings. I mean, this lady is obviously completely out of her mind; and it will probably be a not guilty by reason of insanity sort of thing. I personally think it should be "guilty, but crazy".

I think "guilty AND crazy" is more accurate. ;)
 
First, I'm leery of this “postpartum depression” bit. I’ve never heard of it, so I did some quick reading. It seems that there are quite a few experts that think it’s mythical, especially as a defense against murder.
Postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis are legitimate disorders recognized by the medical community. These conditions affect many women in the weeks and months after childbirth. The difference is degree of severity. Postpartum blues is common and most women experience this mild form of mood instability as the body and hormones return to normal after the herculean physical effort involved in carrying and delivering another human being. The blues last a short period of time and disappear on their own without treatment. Postpartum depression is more serious, extending beyond the first two weeks following delivery, and depending on severity, may require treatment with medication. Postpartum psychosis is the most severe form of the disorder and involves a complete break with reality. It is an emergency that requires immediate hospitalization and treatment with anti-psychotic medication. Women with a history of depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are at greater risk for developing postpartum depression and psychosis. There are also other factors that play a role as well.

Postpartum Depression: eMedicine Obstetrics and Gynecology
Postpartum Psychosis
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis]Postpartum psychosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Postpartum-Onset OCD - What is Postpartum-Onset OCD
Postpartum Major Depression: Detection and Treatment - April 15, 1999 - American Academy of Family Physicians
Delusions

These women pose a very real danger to themselves and potentially their babies. Any medical professional who dismisses the clear signs of postpartum depression or psychosis is setting themselves up for a malpractice claim should things take a turn for the worse. That level of incompetence suggests that he/she dug their medical license from a box of Cracker Jacks. :?

That said, I have been in positions where I have witnessed garden variety insanity of high degree. If that’s the case here, then nothing but mercy and protection of the public are the correct responses.
Absolutely. Anyone who commits such an act is not fit to live amongst the members of society. I agree with everyone here that she should spend the rest of her days locked up in a treatment facility.

Quite a few people have figured out that by claiming any extreme crime was the result of religious indoctrination, especially Christian, high powered defense lawyers will pop up like toast.

This is something to bear in mind in any case where the perpetrator immediately proclaims that they were made to do something by the Devil, to protect someone frow the Devil, to give their child to Gods, to get them into Heaven, etc.
Ms. Sanchez (as anyone who commits such an atrocity) will be evaluated by a qualified mental health professional. Obviously, just because a person claims supernatural influence/possession doesn't necessarily mean they actually experienced a psychotic break with reality. This woman's psychiatric history, however, makes the likelihood of such an episode very high.
 
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This is interesting:

"A recording of the 911 call, which was released before noon Wednesday, confirmed Sanchez claimed she was hearing voices the night of the slaying. It also revealed Sanchez attempted to reach out for help, taking the baby to Garcia, who identifies herself as Sanchez's sister.

“She's gone crazy last night,” Garcia told dispatchers in the early Sunday morning call. “She was hearing voices and she kept bringing me the baby and finally she calmed down and I took her back the baby, and then now I just woke up to hear screaming.”

Garcia and Sanchez's mother, who were both in the home at the time, have declined to comment. Garcia's brother, Greg, told reporters Wednesday that the family remained in shock.

“I still can't believe it happened,” he said. “It feels like I'm trapped in a nightmare.”

The family announced Wednesday they plan on moving out of the house."


Mother in 911 call: ?He told me to do it'

It appears that despite being in the grip of a full-blown psychotic episode, Sanchez tried to prevent what occurred.
IMO, Garcia should face charges.
But perhaps she didn't fully understand the situation.
 
This is interesting:

"A recording of the 911 call, which was released before noon Wednesday, confirmed Sanchez claimed she was hearing voices the night of the slaying. It also revealed Sanchez attempted to reach out for help, taking the baby to Garcia, who identifies herself as Sanchez's sister.

“She's gone crazy last night,” Garcia told dispatchers in the early Sunday morning call. “She was hearing voices and she kept bringing me the baby and finally she calmed down and I took her back the baby, and then now I just woke up to hear screaming.”

Garcia and Sanchez's mother, who were both in the home at the time, have declined to comment. Garcia's brother, Greg, told reporters Wednesday that the family remained in shock.

“I still can't believe it happened,” he said. “It feels like I'm trapped in a nightmare.”

The family announced Wednesday they plan on moving out of the house."


Mother in 911 call: ?He told me to do it'

It appears that despite being in the grip of a full-blown psychotic episode, Sanchez tried to prevent what occurred.
IMO, Garcia should face charges.
But perhaps she didn't fully understand the situation.

Damn.

There are no words that adequately convey the sheer magnitude of the tragedy here, or any similar case for that matter :( :cry:
 
We kill mad dogs.


This woman needs to be removed from society and the gene pool. I don't care if it was post-partum depression or too many Red Bulls.
Pretty much my thought. If a parent is so ****ed up in the head that she kills her own child, she is too broken to live. She has violated the most sacred trust we have as humans and deserves no better than a bullet to the head.

As a parent, this sort of **** makes me physically ill. I wish they would execute her the same day she's found guilty and let the carrion dispose of her body.
 
This is interesting:

"A recording of the 911 call, which was released before noon Wednesday, confirmed Sanchez claimed she was hearing voices the night of the slaying. It also revealed Sanchez attempted to reach out for help, taking the baby to Garcia, who identifies herself as Sanchez's sister.

“She's gone crazy last night,” Garcia told dispatchers in the early Sunday morning call. “She was hearing voices and she kept bringing me the baby and finally she calmed down and I took her back the baby, and then now I just woke up to hear screaming.”

Garcia and Sanchez's mother, who were both in the home at the time, have declined to comment. Garcia's brother, Greg, told reporters Wednesday that the family remained in shock.

“I still can't believe it happened,” he said. “It feels like I'm trapped in a nightmare.”

The family announced Wednesday they plan on moving out of the house."


Mother in 911 call: ?He told me to do it'

It appears that despite being in the grip of a full-blown psychotic episode, Sanchez tried to prevent what occurred.
IMO, Garcia should face charges.
But perhaps she didn't fully understand the situation.

It does, but why did the sister take the child back to his mother? Maybe she didn't understand what hearing voices means (a psychosis/psychotic break). I would have taken her to a hospital right away and not given her baby back to her.
 
We kill mad dogs.


This woman needs to be removed from society and the gene pool. I don't care if it was post-partum depression or too many Red Bulls.

It's tragic, but what the Hell else can you do for her?

You're either going to end up killing her or keeping her in a cage forever. And even if you could treat her, even if you could make her well and allow her to rejoin society... what kind of mercy is that, when she'll still have to live with what she's done? You would be saving her life, when the only rational choice on her part would be to end it.

There are no good choices here. Killing her is merely the least terrible.
 
Pretty much my thought. If a parent is so ****ed up in the head that she kills her own child, she is too broken to live. She has violated the most sacred trust we have as humans and deserves no better than a bullet to the head.

As a parent, this sort of **** makes me physically ill. I wish they would execute her the same day she's found guilty and let the carrion dispose of her body.

Why the disgrace? She was out of her mind, and knowing she was out of her mind tried to have someone else care for her baby. She was immediately horrified with remorse at what she had done, and would not have harmed the child if she had any control over herself or any choice in the matter.

You wouldn't beat a rabid dog. Why would you shame and punish this woman?
 
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