View Poll Results: Is homosexuality wrong and/or unnatural?

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  • It's wrong and unnatural

    22 7.94%
  • It's not wrong, just unnatural

    16 5.78%
  • It's neither wrong nor unnatural

    107 38.63%
  • Don't know/care

    16 5.78%
  • Punish/restrict Christians for being against it

    12 4.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

  1. #741
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There are so many errors in the interpretation of these passages. One has to understand the section of the Torah that they were taken, what the context was, and the translations of the actual words. These passages cannot stand by themselves and mean what they were supposed to mean.

    Here are the passages:

    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
    "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    The section of the Torah that this was taken from refers to codes of holiness and purity. It describes ways that God wants the Hebrews to be different from the Pagans. The passages that surround these two include passages about bestiality and incest, other unclean/unholy acts that were performed by Pagans. Now, we must first look at the word "abomination". This is taken from the Hebrew word "to'ebah". The actual translation of this is NOT abomination, but ritually unclean, something that fits perfectly with the codes of that section of the Bible. So, we now have it not an abomination, but just something that is ritually unclean.

    Next, since this passage is included in the codes of holiness section, it refers to acts that Pagans do, that God wants the Hebrews to separate from. One of these acts is engaging in anal sex with male prostitutes. Now, even if we look at the issue, globally, Hebrew translations refer to anal sex acts; no mention of homosexual orientation or homosexual relationships are mentioned. At all.

    Now, moving on to the actual words. Since Hebrews believed that the Torah was spoken directly to Moses from God, one must wonder why the passage reads like this:
    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." If God was saying something against homosexuality in men, He would have just said this: ""Thou shalt not lie with mankind: it is abomination." Why the "as womankind" part? Think about it. A man should not lie with another man as if HE were a woman. Sexuality in the Torah is always presented as male dominant/female subservient. Hebrew scholars see this as meaning that if men have sexual relations, NEITHER shall be passive ("as womankind"). Also, since this was a norm of the time, this does not apply to today, anyway.

    So, what can we conclude from the actual Hebrew interpretations and the context of what was being discussed? Firstly, the entire section refers to holiness codes, separating the Hebrews from the Pagans. Secondly, the word "abomination" is not accurate; ritually unclean IS accurate. This eliminates any punishment. Thirdly, only anal sex, probably in the context of male prostitutes is prohibited; homosexual orientation has no mention and has no such prohibitions. Fourthly, IF homosexual behavior does occur, neither man can be the passive (woman) in the relationship. Fifthly, this only applies to ancient Hebrews. Sixthly, lesbian relationships are not mentioned at all and, therefore have no prohibitions.

    Now, there is MORE evidence that the prostitution theory holds water. Leviticus 18:3 says this: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." God is saying that the Hebrews are NOT to behave like the Pagans (Canaanites and Egyptians). In both cultures, ritual gay sex with male prostitutes was common.

    So, in conclusion, MY religion interprets these Biblical passages very differently than yours. MY religion sees nothing wrong with homosexuality based on the context of the passages, the cultures of the times, and the actual translations of the words. Based on these passages, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits the gay sexual orientation, nor SSM.

    Your "clear tenets" are nothing of the sort.
    Thank you for that. Thank you so much. I've often wondered what a Jewish interpretation of those passages would look like. The literalism of so many Christian scholars basing their interpretations of specific words, usually from the KJV, has always made me think, "Well, is that what 'abomination' really means in terms of a direct translation of the Hebrew?"

    Yours has been the best post on this entire subject that I've read on DP. Thanks again.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    But, lets be honest, homosexuality is unnatural..
    A man having 6 toes per foot has an "un-natural" attribute as well.
    Unless the man had the 6th toe on each foot surgically put there, it was most likely natural. Being born with 6 fingers or 6 toes is completely natural and contributed to a mutation that happens in about 1 out of every 500 children.

    Polydactyly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I have a cousin who was born with 6 fingers on each hand.

    Mutations are natural. Mutations are a big part of evolution.

    Certain mutations may not be normal statistically(in that they happen often), but that doesn't make them unnatural.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Irrelevant. It is now. That state's interest is in an institution, no individual behavior.
    Since you don't speak for the state again I disagree and stand by the numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    As do my raw numbers in regards to heterosexual relationships.
    That's good because they are smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And you'd be wrong about that.
    "I know I am but what are you" Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Name names. I reject your position on this as incorrect.
    Then you reject the dictionary definition. OK that makes sense.

    You can reject it all you want, this does not change the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I read it as I read it. If I read it wrong, I am requesting that you re-explain it. Your choice whether you do or not.
    And you were wrong.

    If you are not interested OK. Much like you talking about the wealth of information you have posted about gay marraige and tell others to look it up. I am telling you the same thing and you only have to go a few pages back rather than search the entire forum.

    If you are not willing to do this simple deed, how do you expect others to do it for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It's what I observe.
    This does not change the fact that it is not conclusive or any kind of fact in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Nope. You were interpretting. I posted the interpretation that my religion uses. Your interpretation is no more accurate than mine.
    I was interpreting the Bible, not the Torah or God as you tried to suggest. I did in fact interpret what the Bible Old and New Testament says correctly.

    Since yours does not include anything from the NT, it has little bearing on Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So this statement was the "general" we?
    Only if "if" now means "we.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There are so many errors in the interpretation of these passages. One has to understand the section of the Torah that they were taken, what the context was, and the translations of the actual words. These passages cannot stand by themselves and mean what they were supposed to mean.

    Here are the passages:

    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
    "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    The section of the Torah that this was taken from refers to codes of holiness and purity. It describes ways that God wants the Hebrews to be different from the Pagans. The passages that surround these two include passages about bestiality and incest, other unclean/unholy acts that were performed by Pagans. Now, we must first look at the word "abomination". This is taken from the Hebrew word "to'ebah". The actual translation of this is NOT abomination, but ritually unclean, something that fits perfectly with the codes of that section of the Bible. So, we now have it not an abomination, but just something that is ritually unclean. [color-red]<---- is ranked up there with incest and bestiality? OK so having sex with sheep is the same as having anal sex with men, got it.[/color]

    Next, since this passage is included in the codes of holiness section, it refers to acts that Pagans do, that God wants the Hebrews to separate from. One of these acts is engaging in anal sex with male prostitutes. Now, even if we look at the issue, globally, Hebrew translations refer to anal sex acts; no mention of homosexual orientation or homosexual relationships are mentioned. At all.<---They had no word for homosexuality, but we get the idea.

    Now, moving on to the actual words. Since Hebrews believed that the Torah was spoken directly to Moses from God, one must wonder why the passage reads like this:
    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." If God was saying something against homosexuality in men, He would have just said this: ""Thou shalt not lie with mankind: it is abomination." Why the "as womankind" part? Think about it. A man should not lie with another man as if HE were a woman. Sexuality in the Torah is always presented as male dominant/female subservient. Hebrew scholars see this as meaning that if men have sexual relations, NEITHER shall be passive ("as womankind"). Also, since this was a norm of the time, this does not apply to today, anyway.

    So, what can we conclude from the actual Hebrew interpretations and the context of what was being discussed? Firstly, the entire section refers to holiness codes, separating the Hebrews from the Pagans. Secondly, the word "abomination" is not accurate; ritually unclean IS accurate. s eliminates any punishment.<---Those that were in Sodom and Gamorah mite disagree.Thirdly, only anal sex, probably<---This 1 word sums that up well in the context of male prostitutes is prohibited; homosexual orientation has no mention and has no such prohibitions. Fourthly, IF homosexual behavior does occur, neither man can be the passive (woman) in the relationship. Fifthly, this only applies to ancient Hebrews. Sixthly, lesbian relationships are not mentioned at all and, therefore have no prohibitions.<---No question it applies only to the ancient Hebrews. It does support the NT and it's own prohibitions on homosexuality.

    Now, there is MORE evidence that the prostitution theory holds water. Leviticus 18:3 says this: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." God is saying that the Hebrews are NOT to behave like the Pagans (Canaanites and Egyptians). In both cultures, ritual gay sex with male prostitutes was common.

    So, in conclusion, MY religion interprets these Biblical passages very differently than yours. MY religion sees nothing wrong with homosexuality based on the context of the passages, the cultures of the times, and the actual translations of the words. Based on these passages, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits the gay sexual orientation, nor SSM.
    Really?

    Romans 1:26–27 For this reason wGod gave them up to xdishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, ymen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous2 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,3


    Marraige:

    Genesis 2:24 24 tTherefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 7:2–16 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 uThe husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 vDo not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, wso that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

    6 Now as a concession, xnot a command, I say this.1 7 yI wish that all were zas I myself am. But aeach has his own gift from God, bone of one kind and one of another.

    8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that cit is good for them to remain single das I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, ethey should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

    10 To the married fI give this charge (not I, but the Lord): gthe wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does, hshe should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and gthe husband should not divorce his wife.

    12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. iOtherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you2 jto peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, kwhether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Your "clear tenets" are nothing of the sort.
    I have shown they are crystal clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    In the Hebrew Bible... the Torah, the translation refers to anal sex.. NOT homosexuality. Nothing about homosexual orientation is mentioned... only this one particular behavior. Now, we know that sexual behavior and sexual orientation are two very different things. Further, one must understand that this section of Leviticus refers to holiness/purity codes, codes that were to separate the Hebrews from Pagans. Pagan priests, at the time, practiced anal intercourse. It was included in the section that also included incest and bestiality
    They had no word for "sexual orientation" so that is a given. Of course reading the sections with the NT brings clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Nope. I dismiss the irrelevant and only address what you got wrong.
    Nothing wrong yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Your example was personal and not global and therefore is not relevant to proving anything... except to you.
    My example was for clarification, nothing more. You choose to ignore it for whatever reason. Global or not it remains logical and you can't ignore that without being intellectual dishonest.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Which is what I did and what you did.
    In some cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #744
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Thank you for that. Thank you so much. I've often wondered what a Jewish interpretation of those passages would look like. The literalism of so many Christian scholars basing their interpretations of specific words, usually from the KJV, has always made me think, "Well, is that what 'abomination' really means in terms of a direct translation of the Hebrew?"

    Yours has been the best post on this entire subject that I've read on DP. Thanks again.
    What most folks don’t understand or appreciate, is that the Hebrew language is built on stem and root words. This allows many words to have multiple meanings. If you speak Hebrew, you come to realize that every time you read Torah, you notice new nuances in the passages. This is its brilliance. Torah is not static as it seems to be in English translations but rather, the Hebrew words flow in many different directions like water rivulets down a hill.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    What most folks don’t understand or appreciate, is that the Hebrew language is built on stem and root words. This allows many words to have multiple meanings. If you speak Hebrew, you come to realize that every time you read Torah, you notice new nuances in the passages. This is its brilliance.
    I was aware of the uniquely intriguing structure of semitic verb constructions. I haven't really seen many examples of what this does to the semantics of the language. This seems to be an excellent example.

    I recently read this terrific book, which has a whole chapter on semitic verbs. Highly recommended!
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    You're really a comic, aren't you? I don't really know that God really said all that about gays. So you're right! So maybe God really created gays, huh? And maybe he approves of gay sex, do you think? Do you have the biblical passage? Chapter and verse?

    My point here is that I was trying to show what God wouldn&rsquo;t do. But since I&rsquo;m so stupid, and can&rsquo;t prove what God says or doesn&rsquo;t say. Maybe you can show me in the bible what God does say, or where God approves. Can you do that? Yes? No?

    I seriously doubt that God approves of bad behavior.

    Natural: existing in, or formed by nature.

    There, I defined it for you. I just looked at that definition over, under, around and through. It doesn&rsquo;t say that gay is natural as far as I can see. Or does it? Can you find that &ldquo;Gay sex is natural&rdquo; in that definition?

    Gender and sexual orientation are mutually exclusive? Facts: natural sex creates babies, and unnatural sex does not. Stop trying to over-intellectualize it.

    Oh, and the three points I was trying to make about the father, the couple, and the dude? The only reason you think that it's stupid is because you ignored the point I was trying to make. That in general, people don&rsquo;t want gay children, and normally, dudes don&rsquo;t want to be insulted. Because as natural as you think being gay is, it&rsquo;s considered an insult to be called gay. An insult for something that you think is natural. Why is that?
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  7. #747
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    Natural: existing in, or formed by nature.






  8. #748
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post





    Didn't you just get done denying your tendency to appeal to nature?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    It's not an appeal to nature when someone clearly states they define natural as something existing in nature and thus you show them that it occurs in nature. Learn what a fallacy is before you try throwing it out as if it has weight

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It's not an appeal to nature when someone clearly states they define natural as something existing in nature and thus you show them that it occurs in nature. Learn what a fallacy is before you try throwing it out as if it has weight
    It is if you use it to excuse or explain human behavior. I know what it is, and while he didn't explicitly link it in this instance, you know as well as I that that was the intention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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