View Poll Results: Is homosexuality wrong and/or unnatural?

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  • It's wrong and unnatural

    22 7.94%
  • It's not wrong, just unnatural

    16 5.78%
  • It's neither wrong nor unnatural

    107 38.63%
  • Don't know/care

    16 5.78%
  • Punish/restrict Christians for being against it

    12 4.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

  1. #731
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    You missed a word. "Ignorant." Or maybe "uninformed."
    Already started.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    Hey, I'm not the one saying it's OK to be gay. Why don't you go after those "gay is OK" rumor spreaders?
    You're right. You're not. Which is precisely why you are ill informed. Interesting that you haven't figured this out, yet.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #733
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    Well, you're half right. I don't hate gays, but I feel I need to set the record straight. It's a shame you guys get combative when someone states an opposing view.
    I have no issue with an opposing view. I have issue with an ignorant view. That is all I see from you.

    Now God didn't create Adam and Eve, then think to himself 'hmmm, something's missing", then snap his fingers, "I know! Gays! I'll create gays!"
    Really? You know this, how?

    Then proclaim to the gays, "go forth and find other men, to couple with them", as if he were thinking "go forth, but don't multiply"!
    Hmmm... and God created those who were sterile because? Do you SEE how easy it is to refute absolutely everything you say?

    Now, you know my view on why it's unnatural.
    What we know is that you cannot even define the word, so your position and reasons are non-credible.

    The procreation argument.
    Already refuted in many ways, several times. Do you have anything else?

    But let me put it another way. Let's look at it from another angle.

    If homosexuality is natural, then no father should fear the possibility that their son will be gay. Yet fathers do!
    Now this has got to be the STUPIDEST explanation that I have ever heard. Fathers are afraid that their son will get get a girl pregnant before marriage. According to your logic... I JUST PROVED THAT PROCREATION IS NOT NATURAL!!!

    When expectant couples talk about the baby that's coming, and talk about what they want (boy or girl), they don't say that they want a gay child. No, they want a normal healthy boy or girl. Are they guilty of hatred against gays?
    You do realize that gender and sexual orientation are mutually exclusive... wait... you don't. Your statement would only be logical if parents said they wanted a heterosexual child. Boy/girl is not opposite from gay. You really know very little about basic human biology, don't you?

    And if, as you claim, being gay is natural and normal, then I should be able to tell some dude that I think he's gay without getting my lights punched out, right? I mean, it's natural, right?
    I stand corrected. THIS is the stupidest explanation that I have ever heard around homosexuality being normal/natural... two words that we KNOW you cannot define. But let's watch me destroy your idiotic argument. If you go up to just ONE guy, and say he's gay, and you don't get punched, you are wrong. So, if he's gay, you lose. And, if you go up to a guy and say he's a conservative, and you get punched, then... hey... wait... according to your logic... I JUST PROVED THAT CONSERVATISM IS ABNORMAL AND UNNATURAL.

    So does that make the common person a hateful homophobe? No. They just don't really believe it's natural. They're just not really really believing!
    Hateful homophobe. Perhaps, perhaps not. Ignorant? Absolutely.

    I think you just want everybody to accept something that they can't. It goes against a deeply rooted belief that it's just wrong.
    And I have no issue with the belief. Try and prove it logically, and I will destroy it... as I did.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    RamFel has guts to speak his mind in the face of "political correctness".

    Here comes a meaningless flurry of "bigot, hater, etc".
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Don't you know it.
    Wrong. The two of you, generally, do not argue this from an ignorant position. Your positions have some merit, are religiously based, for the most part and, in general, do not spread misinformation. You both tend to debate honestly. Not one of those characteristics apply to RamFel's postings.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #735
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This was not the case even 50 years ago. You are also trying to say the states interest in the majority is the same for a minority OF a minority. Less than 4% to 10% as compared to 50% of 90%. DO the math.
    Irrelevant. It is now. That state's interest is in an institution, no individual behavior.

    I don't have to prove any absolute or causation as the "raw" numbers tell the story.
    As do my raw numbers in regards to heterosexual relationships.

    I disagree, I think your argument is.
    And you'd be wrong about that.

    Most is not an entire group now is it? This does not change the fact that most applied to this thread is accurate. Do I need to list names?

    Do we need to pull out a law dictionary to show the difference between "most" and "all?" We have a word for that as well.
    Name names. I reject your position on this as incorrect.

    My statement was completely accurate.
    Nope. Not at all.

    Read my reply. I am not going to retype a post that you linked to. Just follow it back and don't jump to inaccurate conclusions.
    I read it as I read it. If I read it wrong, I am requesting that you re-explain it. Your choice whether you do or not.

    Yes you mite be wrong and yet you state it as fact?
    It's what I observe.

    I was not interpreting God, I was stating what the Bible says, bluntly.
    Nope. You were interpretting. I posted the interpretation that my religion uses. Your interpretation is no more accurate than mine.

    I never said you were...
    So this statement was the "general" we?
    If you call yourself a Christian, you should know the holy book your religion is based on.
    In Leviticus 18:22, it is written: "And you shall not cohabit with a male as one cohabits with a woman; it is an abomination." I don't see any mention of prostitution?

    And in Leviticus 20:13, it is written: "And if a man cohabits with a male as with a woman, both of them have done an abominable thing; they shall be put to death; their blood falls back upon them." Again no prostitution?
    There are so many errors in the interpretation of these passages. One has to understand the section of the Torah that they were taken, what the context was, and the translations of the actual words. These passages cannot stand by themselves and mean what they were supposed to mean.

    Here are the passages:

    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
    "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    The section of the Torah that this was taken from refers to codes of holiness and purity. It describes ways that God wants the Hebrews to be different from the Pagans. The passages that surround these two include passages about bestiality and incest, other unclean/unholy acts that were performed by Pagans. Now, we must first look at the word "abomination". This is taken from the Hebrew word "to'ebah". The actual translation of this is NOT abomination, but ritually unclean, something that fits perfectly with the codes of that section of the Bible. So, we now have it not an abomination, but just something that is ritually unclean.

    Next, since this passage is included in the codes of holiness section, it refers to acts that Pagans do, that God wants the Hebrews to separate from. One of these acts is engaging in anal sex with male prostitutes. Now, even if we look at the issue, globally, Hebrew translations refer to anal sex acts; no mention of homosexual orientation or homosexual relationships are mentioned. At all.

    Now, moving on to the actual words. Since Hebrews believed that the Torah was spoken directly to Moses from God, one must wonder why the passage reads like this:
    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." If God was saying something against homosexuality in men, He would have just said this: ""Thou shalt not lie with mankind: it is abomination." Why the "as womankind" part? Think about it. A man should not lie with another man as if HE were a woman. Sexuality in the Torah is always presented as male dominant/female subservient. Hebrew scholars see this as meaning that if men have sexual relations, NEITHER shall be passive ("as womankind"). Also, since this was a norm of the time, this does not apply to today, anyway.

    So, what can we conclude from the actual Hebrew interpretations and the context of what was being discussed? Firstly, the entire section refers to holiness codes, separating the Hebrews from the Pagans. Secondly, the word "abomination" is not accurate; ritually unclean IS accurate. This eliminates any punishment. Thirdly, only anal sex, probably in the context of male prostitutes is prohibited; homosexual orientation has no mention and has no such prohibitions. Fourthly, IF homosexual behavior does occur, neither man can be the passive (woman) in the relationship. Fifthly, this only applies to ancient Hebrews. Sixthly, lesbian relationships are not mentioned at all and, therefore have no prohibitions.

    Now, there is MORE evidence that the prostitution theory holds water. Leviticus 18:3 says this: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances." God is saying that the Hebrews are NOT to behave like the Pagans (Canaanites and Egyptians). In both cultures, ritual gay sex with male prostitutes was common.

    So, in conclusion, MY religion interprets these Biblical passages very differently than yours. MY religion sees nothing wrong with homosexuality based on the context of the passages, the cultures of the times, and the actual translations of the words. Based on these passages, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits the gay sexual orientation, nor SSM.

    Your "clear tenets" are nothing of the sort.

    OK so you would rather misrepresent what I said to fit in better with your wrong reply, OK.
    Nope. I dismiss the irrelevant and only address what you got wrong.

    No I am not saying "faith" is logical.
    Good, then we agree.

    So again faith can be logical. This is not saying faith IS logic as they are polar opposites. This does not mean that one cannot be grounded in the other as I said and showed an example.
    Your example was personal and not global and therefore is not relevant to proving anything... except to you.

    And you need to read what I said in context before jumping to conclusions. Hell ask for a clarification at least.
    Which is what I did and what you did.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 05-31-11 at 01:00 PM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #736
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Wrong. The two of you, generally, do not argue this from an ignorant position. Your positions have some merit, are religiously based, for the most part and, in general, do not spread misinformation. You both tend to debate honestly. Not one of those characteristics apply to RamFel's postings.
    You're fair and I respect you for it.

    If I must try to debate this from a scientific view, I'll first gather a ton of scientific arguments against it. Though, scientifically, we cannot prove morality either right or wrong with science. Even if I were to make a strong scientific argument, that I created with effort, I think it would be totally disregarded because science doesn't prove, and people won't care.

  7. #737
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    You're fair and I respect you for it.

    If I must try to debate this from a scientific view, I'll first gather a ton of scientific arguments against it. Though, scientifically, we cannot prove morality either right or wrong with science. Even if I were to make a strong scientific argument, that I created with effort, I think it would be totally disregarded because science doesn't prove, and people won't care.
    I thought you were all about the logic. It seems that you have conceded that your stance is based on emotion, which doesn't lend itself to empirical data.
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  8. #738
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    I do not buy into this "sin" bit.
    I will not have a "book" written thousands of years ago dictate my thinking.
    Nor will I permit society to do this.
    But, lets be honest, homosexuality is unnatural..
    A man having 6 toes per foot has an "un-natural" attribute as well.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgasm View Post
    I thought you were all about the logic. It seems that you have conceded that your stance is based on emotion, which doesn't lend itself to empirical data.
    I am not certain how this would be considered emotional rather than logical?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am not certain how this would be considered emotional rather than logical?
    People use code words for "icky" like "unnatural". Yet I never see straight people start threads decrying how "unnatural" the types of sex that heterosexuals have that doesn't lead to pregnancy. Oral sex, anal sex, mutual masterbation, etc...

    This is due to emotion, not logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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