View Poll Results: Is homosexuality wrong and/or unnatural?

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  • It's wrong and unnatural

    22 7.94%
  • It's not wrong, just unnatural

    16 5.78%
  • It's neither wrong nor unnatural

    107 38.63%
  • Don't know/care

    16 5.78%
  • Punish/restrict Christians for being against it

    12 4.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

  1. #1411
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm pretty sure Kal's argument comes less from the "peace and love" aspects of the Bible and more from the "obey me or you're going to hell" aspects of the Bible. It's pretty obvious from looking at Christian history and many Christians today that fear is a very effective way of holding power over others.
    Exactly right.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It is not the fault of the Bible that MAN has issues with the truth written inside.
    How do you know that it is "Truth" as God wants it? And not "truth" as a bunch of council members wanted it?
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Then what was Soddom and Gamora about? The Great Flood? What was that passage about casting sinners into a lake of fire? The subserviance of women? The bible preaches more than just peace and love.
    So everyone knows, Sodom and Gommorah was not about homosexuality at all. It was hospitality and protection. God punished those two cities because they were inhosptiable, including towards his two angels that he sent. The "sodomy" that he was refering was NOT homosexuality, but was RAPE. The homosexuality misinterpretation comes from the fact that the angry mob wanted to rape (male homosexuality) the angels that visited Lot. This was a very common method of humiliation that was used at the time, especially amongst Pagans. God's warning is that sodomy... RAPE, especially homosexual RAPE, is sinful... hence his destruction of those two cities where that practice occurred. The story says nothing about consentual homosexual behavior.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Those people wrote the gospels but they did not write the bible. It was various councils, like the Council of Trent that wrote the bible by putting together the various gospels.
    The council of Trent did no such thing. It was not even the council of Nicea in 325 AD, it was 60 years later. It was in Carthage in 397 AD and the first 21 books were never in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    They did so by keeping some of what those various people said in thier gospels and discarding other things.
    We have all but one that was discarded. We also know what was in that one.

    Concerning manuscripts that were burned at the order of Constantine, there is really no mention of such a thing actually happening at the order of Constantine or at the Council of Nicea. The Arian party's document claiming Christ to be a created being, was abandoned by them because of the strong resistance to it and was torn to shreds in the sight of everyone present at the council. Constantine, and the Council of Nicea, for that matter, had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea. The council that formed an undisputed decision on the canon took place at Carthage in 397, sixty years after Constantine's death. However, long before Constantine, 21 books were acknowledged by all Christians (the 4 Gospels, Acts, 13 Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation). There were 10 disputed books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Ps-Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, Gospel of Hebrews) and several that most all considered hereticalóGospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthaias, Acts of Andrew, John, etc.

    Liberal scholars and fictional authors like to purport the idea that the gospels of Thomas and Peter (and other long-disputed books) contain truths that the church vehemently stomped out, but that simply has no basis historically. It is closer to the truth to say that no serious theologians really cared about these books because they were obviously written by people lying about authorship and had little basis in reality. That is one reason why a council declaring the canon was so late in coming (397 AD), because the books that were trusted and the ones that had been handed down were already widely known.
    - Did Constantine decide what books belonged in the Bible?

    People make assumptions about the Bible and it's assembly without even knowing what really happened or when.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Then what was Soddom and Gamora about? The Great Flood? What was that passage about casting sinners into a lake of fire? The subserviance of women? The bible preaches more than just peace and love.
    That is in the OT, has nothing at all to do with modern Christians outside of reference material into the nature of God. I have already explained this though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I agree that the over all message is about peace and love but what is more controllable? A society that is generally taught to love? Or a soceity generally taught to hate?
    You mean like the Nazi's? or any racial extermination campaign? You decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually it can. I believe that CC even showed an example of how translation can be a big influence in how something is said in this very thread.
    It made no difference. If 67% to 80% of homosexuals practice sodomy, they would be stoned to death by OT standards. No mistranslation in that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Doesn't matter where it was originally from. It is still there and still teaches about hating.
    It teaches about hating sin, not people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So my question is that since the NT is, even according to you, different from the OT how is it possible that the Bible reflects what God wants? Jesus did not change anything that God wanted, he just added to it or explained it. So how is it that they are different? Or more exactly using your words the OT "has very little to do with modern Christians outside of a...." The very fact that there are differences shows that God had nothing to do with the NT. Quite possibly even had nothing to do with the OT.
    You are trying to compare an Apple and an orange. The OT was Gods law and prophecy's for his chosen people the Jews. The NT is the new covenant for everyone.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-10-11 at 08:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So everyone knows, Sodom and Gommorah was not about homosexuality at all. It was hospitality and protection. God punished those two cities because they were inhosptiable, including towards his two angels that he sent. The "sodomy" that he was refering was NOT homosexuality, but was RAPE. The homosexuality misinterpretation comes from the fact that the angry mob wanted to rape (male homosexuality) the angels that visited Lot. This was a very common method of humiliation that was used at the time, especially amongst Pagans. God's warning is that sodomy... RAPE, especially homosexual RAPE, is sinful... hence his destruction of those two cities where that practice occurred. The story says nothing about consentual homosexual behavior.
    And why is that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #1417
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Pius IV confirmed the council’s decrees in 1564 and published a summary of its doctrinal statements; observance of disciplinary decrees was imposed under sanctions. In short order the catechism of Trent appeared, the missal and breviary were revised, and eventually a revised version of the Bible was published. By the end of the century, many of the abuses that had motivated the Protestant Reformation had disappeared, and the Roman Catholic church had reclaimed many of its followers in Europe. The council, however, failed to heal the schism that had sundered the Western Christian church.
    Britannica.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    People make assumptions about the Bible and it's assembly without even knowing what really happened or when.
    You were saying?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Britannica.com

    You were saying?
    That you are still wrong. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches did not follow the Protestant revisions, and they continue to base their Old Testament on the Septuagint. The result is that these versions of the the Bible have more Old Testament books than most Protestant versions. Catholic Old Testaments include 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel. Orthodox Old Testaments include these plus 1st and 2nd Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151 and 3rd Maccabees.

    The Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox New Testaments are identical.

    You were also talking about much more than just Trent. You were talking about Nicea, but you are trying to avoid that. Need I post the original statement by you?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-10-11 at 09:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #1419
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The council of Trent did no such thing. It was not even the council of Nicea in 325 AD, it was 60 years later. It was in Carthage in 397 AD and the first 21 books were never in question.



    We have all but one that was discarded. We also know what was in that one.

    Concerning manuscripts that were burned at the order of Constantine, there is really no mention of such a thing actually happening at the order of Constantine or at the Council of Nicea. The Arian party's document claiming Christ to be a created being, was abandoned by them because of the strong resistance to it and was torn to shreds in the sight of everyone present at the council. Constantine, and the Council of Nicea, for that matter, had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea. The council that formed an undisputed decision on the canon took place at Carthage in 397, sixty years after Constantine's death. However, long before Constantine, 21 books were acknowledged by all Christians (the 4 Gospels, Acts, 13 Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation). There were 10 disputed books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Ps-Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, Gospel of Hebrews) and several that most all considered heretical—Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthaias, Acts of Andrew, John, etc.

    Liberal scholars and fictional authors like to purport the idea that the gospels of Thomas and Peter (and other long-disputed books) contain truths that the church vehemently stomped out, but that simply has no basis historically. It is closer to the truth to say that no serious theologians really cared about these books because they were obviously written by people lying about authorship and had little basis in reality. That is one reason why a council declaring the canon was so late in coming (397 AD), because the books that were trusted and the ones that had been handed down were already widely known.
    - Did Constantine decide what books belonged in the Bible?

    People make assumptions about the Bible and it's assembly without even knowing what really happened or when.
    And my point was, we weren't there. There is no way for us to know for sure why they put in the books they did or whether they left out more and what significance anything that was left out might have had. It is quite possible that if these people were looking for a way to manipulate certain parts of the Bible to ensure that it was written the way they wanted it to be written, they could have hidden or even destroyed texts that contradicted anything they wanted to ensure was at least some what supported by the Bible.

    It is also possible that they were unintentionally putting things in out of context for what the prophets and/or Jesus and/or God wanted put out. Or that they took things the wrong way. People don't always say or write things exactly as they would like. Sometimes you don't even realize something could be taken the wrong way unless it is pointed out to you. It is also possible that there were texts and/or lessons that were just as important as those or may have expanded on or added to those that are in the Bible that were destroyed and/or lost that could change the entire meaning of the Bible or at least parts of the Bible.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    However, these are the verses that always freak me right the hell out:

    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

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