View Poll Results: Is homosexuality wrong and/or unnatural?

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  • It's wrong and unnatural

    22 7.94%
  • It's not wrong, just unnatural

    16 5.78%
  • It's neither wrong nor unnatural

    107 38.63%
  • Don't know/care

    16 5.78%
  • Punish/restrict Christians for being against it

    12 4.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Jesus did not write the Bible. Nor did any of his disciples.
    The names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were linked with the Gospels as their authors right from the very earliest days. No other authors were ever suggested for them. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts of the Gospels, and they all give them the same authors. If the names of these authors had only been connected with their Gospels in the second or third centuries, it's very unlikely that all the Greek manuscripts would give them the same authors. By then, these Gospels were being circulated very widely.

    In the end this negates the message of peace and love from the NT how? Since your reply just sort of ignores my main point.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-10-11 at 05:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were linked with the Gospels as their authors right from the very earliest days. No other authors were ever suggested for them. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts of the Gospels, and they all give them the same authors. If the names of these authors had only been connected with their Gospels in the second or third centuries, it's very unlikely that all the Greek manuscripts would give them the same authors. By then, these Gospels were being circulated very widely.

    In the end this negates the message of peace and love from the NT how? Since your reply just sort of ignores my main point.
    I don't think he was referring to who wrote the actual words that were put into the Bible, but rather who decided what writings/manuscripts/texts were put into the Bible, to make the Bible. Those people were the ones that many, like myself, believe were looking for power and control over the people.

    Can we honestly know what writings they had? Do we honestly know if those involved didn't destroy texts or cover-up texts that didn't agree with what they were putting into the Bible? Do we know that there weren't other texts and writings that were simply not available at that time to be included in the Bible?

    Then there is the translation issue (some words from the Hebrew texts do not translate to what is written in the Bible, at least according to some).

    And there is the fact that there are churches, denominations, and/or specific clergymen who take certain Bible passages to influence the belief that a part of the Bible says something it doesn't (the story of Sodom is a good example of this, if someone read that story straight out of the Bible, with no initial prejudices for or against gays, they should have no reason whatsoever to believe that particular story had anything to do with God destroying that city for sexual deviance, including homosexuality but with the possible exception of forced sex, from that story alone). Yet, from a small child I know I, like many other children raised in a Christian family, were taught to believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality and other sexual deviance, and the word "sodomy" even comes from the city. Either we do not have all the information from this story in the Bible or many people have come to accept this explaination without actually, critically reading up on Sodom for themselves.

    Really, we don't even know if God wanted people to put the Bible together the way they did or that He would want people to base their faith upon just those writings that were put into the Bible.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omgitsme View Post
    I would say there is evidence saying that homosexuality is natural.
    OMG...

    Don't waste your time. This thread has become a circle jerk event.

    I'm in my den moving my toes up and down. You have no way of knowing that I'm doing what I claim. Whether I'm actually doing what I claim - you just have to take my word for it.

    My point is: There are a lot of claims with no supporting sources for arguments, Ya dig?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't think he was referring to who wrote the actual words that were put into the Bible, but rather who decided what writings/manuscripts/texts were put into the Bible, to make the Bible. Those people were the ones that many, like myself, believe were looking for power and control over the people.
    And yet it preaches peace and love? Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Can we honestly know what writings they had? Do we honestly know if those involved didn't destroy texts or cover-up texts that didn't agree with what they were putting into the Bible? Do we know that there weren't other texts and writings that were simply not available at that time to be included in the Bible?
    Again look at the overall message, that would make little sense if they wanted control.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Then there is the translation issue (some words from the Hebrew texts do not translate to what is written in the Bible, at least according to some).
    This does not change the morality or the basic understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And there is the fact that there are churches, denominations, and/or specific clergymen who take certain Bible passages to influence the belief that a part of the Bible says something it doesn't (the story of Sodom is a good example of this, if someone read that story straight out of the Bible, with no initial prejudices for or against gays, they should have no reason whatsoever to believe that particular story had anything to do with God destroying that city for sexual deviance, including homosexuality but with the possible exception of forced sex, from that story alone). Yet, from a small child I know I, like many other children raised in a Christian family, were taught to believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality and other sexual deviance, and the word "sodomy" even comes from the city. Either we do not have all the information from this story in the Bible or many people have come to accept this explaination without actually, critically reading up on Sodom for themselves.
    Sodom and Gomorrah is from the Torah, it has been in the Bible for 2000 years long before the NT. We know that sodomy was a sin punishable by stoning even without that story. Please explain this disparity? Common sense has to play a role at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Really, we don't even know if God wanted people to put the Bible together the way they did or that He would want people to base their faith upon just those writings that were put into the Bible.
    Most of what you have there is allot of "ifs" that really don't make AGAIN any real difference to the overall message or the morals laid down. The translations of Hebrew to English in the Bible are just fine. They would rather quibble about a word here or a word there to justify immorality, I wont. Now lets take into account the OT has very little to do with modern Christian's outside of a good reference for what God finds good or objectionable.

    This is the second reply that has very little to do with my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Does it matter? It is obvious he is a Christian by his statement.
    1. Really? I'm pretty sure Christians aren't the only one who think homosexuality is a sin.
    2. My question was a response to his absolute statement about God - who, by the way, is not owned by Christianity. He can answer it for himself.


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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were linked with the Gospels as their authors right from the very earliest days. No other authors were ever suggested for them. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts of the Gospels, and they all give them the same authors. If the names of these authors had only been connected with their Gospels in the second or third centuries, it's very unlikely that all the Greek manuscripts would give them the same authors. By then, these Gospels were being circulated very widely.

    In the end this negates the message of peace and love from the NT how? Since your reply just sort of ignores my main point.
    Those people wrote the gospels but they did not write the bible. It was various councils, like the Council of Trent that wrote the bible by putting together the various gospels. They did so by keeping some of what those various people said in thier gospels and discarding other things.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Greedy power hungry men? The disciples who wrote the Gospels all wound up dead and/or broke. Jesus preaches against worldly wealth and most wordily things. He preached charity and loving your neighbor?

    Did you read the same Bible???

    Forget it. I don't want to derail anymore than I already have.
    I'm pretty sure Kal's argument comes less from the "peace and love" aspects of the Bible and more from the "obey me or you're going to hell" aspects of the Bible. It's pretty obvious from looking at Christian history and many Christians today that fear is a very effective way of holding power over others.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    1. Really? I'm pretty sure Christians aren't the only one who think homosexuality is a sin.
    2. My question was a response to his absolute statement about God - who, by the way, is not owned by Christianity. He can answer it for himself.

    You should slap palm as it was pretty easy to see from his statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm pretty sure Kal's argument comes less from the "peace and love" aspects of the Bible and more from the "obey me or you're going to hell" aspects of the Bible. It's pretty obvious from looking at Christian history and many Christians today that fear is a very effective way of holding power over others.
    It is not the fault of the Bible that MAN has issues with the truth written inside.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality sinful and/or unnatural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And yet it preaches peace and love? Go figure.
    Then what was Soddom and Gamora about? The Great Flood? What was that passage about casting sinners into a lake of fire? The subserviance of women? The bible preaches more than just peace and love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Again look at the overall message, that would make little sense if they wanted control.
    I agree that the over all message is about peace and love but what is more controllable? A society that is generally taught to love? Or a soceity generally taught to hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This does not change the morality or the basic understanding.
    Actually it can. I believe that CC even showed an example of how translation can be a big influence in how something is said in this very thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Sodom and Gomorrah is from the Torah, it has been in the Bible for 2000 years long before the NT. We know that sodomy was a sin punishable by stoning even without that story. Please explain this disparity? Common sense has to play a role at some point.
    Doesn't matter where it was originally from. It is still there and still teaches about hating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Most of what you have there is allot of "ifs" that really don't make AGAIN any real difference to the overall message or the morals laid down. The translations of Hebrew to English in the Bible are just fine. They would rather quibble about a word here or a word there to justify immorality, I wont. Now lets take into account the OT has very little to do with modern Christian's outside of a good reference for what God finds good or objectionable.
    So my question is that since the NT is, even according to you, different from the OT how is it possible that the Bible reflects what God wants? Jesus did not change anything that God wanted, he just added to it or explained it. So how is it that they are different? Or more exactly using your words the OT "has very little to do with modern Christians outside of a...." The very fact that there are differences shows that God had nothing to do with the NT. Quite possibly even had nothing to do with the OT.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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