Assult and Rape, does it justify deadly force?

Kal'Stang said:

It doesn't have anything to do with being stupid. I has to do with just not being able to accept the facts. A shrink could probably explain it better than I.

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No, I get what you're saying. There's a sort of mental block when it comes to trauma like that, especially in parents. I guess I'm speaking from a position that, if I had robbed a place and gotten shot, my folks wouldn't even talk to me. I know they'd want me in prison for the maximum sentence. That's just how they are.

So, yes, thinking about it like that, I too can catch a glimpse of that "reasoning". It's still 100% wrong and if that hadn't been happening outside the courtroom, it would've come to blows and blood.

RadicalModerate said:

Excuse my off topicness, my language and my anger, but that is a seriously ****ED up analysis of the effects of rape.

First off, minor scratching and bruising? I get my scratching a bruising playing with my boxer. Forcing a woman to submit to rape causes SERIOUS bodily harm in the struggle. Not to mention the absolutely devastating mental effects of this trauma. This asshat needs to learn a thing or two before he opens his drooling yap. I wonder if he still thinks rape is about having a raging boner and not the psychological and physical domination of another individual who is seen as less than human?

I'm not much for language analysis, but downplaying rape like this ****tard did contributes to a culture that sees women as the plaything of men, and that is simply inexcusable.

Again, I apologize for the language, I'm not big on swearing, but that was more than a little disturbing to hear someone so casually brush off rape like that.

"Oh, it's just a few scratches..." Jesus Harold tapdancing Christ on rubber crutches.

Now turning to the question at hand...

I think all women should be armed against sexual assault. As long as we live in a society where rape happens, individuals need to defend themselves. A snubnose .38 fits into a purse or a small holster, mace also works wonder and fits almost anywhere. Knives are intimidating and extremely damaging. Anything a person can use to prevent someone from assaulting and forcing them into a victim role is a-okay with me.

That being said, I don't like that dis-empowering notion of "watch where you're at and who's around." Women have the absolute right to walk anywhere she please, dressed how she wants and to be free from the threat of assault or rape. Look, I acknowledge rape as a fact, and it will never be eliminated completely, but the attitudes that men learn to become psychologically able to rape someone need to be addressed as much as women need to learn to defend themselves from serious assault with deadly force.

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I agree with most of what you said. However, the bolded part... I have some caveats about that.

I teach self-defense, including defensive handgunning, to women quite regularly. I don't think it is "dis-empowering" to go over high-risk behaviors and talk about why certain things are a bad idea. Drinking heavily in a venue where you aren't safe, going off with a stranger, etc.

Sure, every woman should be safe from rape regardless... but the fact is it ain't so and probably never will be. We have to deal with reality, and not "should".

I should, given the American tradition of free speech, be able to yell "Harley Davidson sucks!" at the top of my lungs in a biker bar at 4AM and leave the place unscathed. If I were fool enough to do such a thing, should won't save me from the mass-beatdown-and-boot-party I'm likely to suffer as a result. We have to be realistic.

evanescence said:

gawd aint that the truth. If someone breaks into my house, they will be met with deadly force. I have a family to protect, as well as stuff that is hard earned. This bleeding heart mentality is for the birds.

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I will be honest...I wont shoot to protect my 'stuff.' Thats just my choice. But if there is a threat to family...all bets are off. WhenI carry concealed I ALMOSt (with very rare exceptions) have at least two forms of non-lethal defense on hand. The best defense is the brain and being situationally aware.

Goshin said:

I agree with most of what you said. However, the bolded part... I have some caveats about that.

I teach self-defense, including defensive handgunning, to women quite regularly. I don't think it is "dis-empowering" to go over high-risk behaviors and talk about why certain things are a bad idea. Drinking heavily in a venue where you aren't safe, going off with a stranger, etc.

Sure, every woman should be safe from rape regardless... but the fact is it ain't so and probably never will be. We have to deal with reality, and not "should".

I should, given the American tradition of free speech, be able to yell "Harley Davidson sucks!" at the top of my lungs in a biker bar at 4AM and leave the place unscathed. If I were fool enough to do such a thing, should won't save me from the mass-beatdown-and-boot-party I'm likely to suffer as a result. We have to be realistic.

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The thing is though that the large majority of rapes aren't committed by a stranger, they're committed by someone the woman knows, and in many cases trusts. To expect us to be on our guard at all time, ready to draw our weapons at a moments notice seems unreasonable. While I agree that women do need to take some precautions for our own safety we also need to do more to change a culture where date rape is acceptable and common.

Silence said:

The thing is though that the large majority of rapes aren't committed by a stranger, they're committed by someone the woman knows, and in many cases trusts. To expect us to be on our guard at all time, ready to draw our weapons at a moments notice seems unreasonable. While I agree that women do need to take some precautions for our own safety we also need to do more to change a culture where date rape is acceptable and common.

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I wouldn't say that it is "acceptable". Common certainly...but not acceptable.

Goshin said:

I teach self-defense, including defensive handgunning, to women quite regularly. I don't think it is "dis-empowering" to go over high-risk behaviors and talk about why certain things are a bad idea. Drinking heavily in a venue where you aren't safe, going off with a stranger, etc.

Sure, every woman should be safe from rape regardless... but the fact is it ain't so and probably never will be. We have to deal with reality, and not "should".

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No, I totally agree, that's exactly the point I was trying make, perhaps it didn't come out right. Yes, I agree, reality bites, rape happens and women NEED to know how to defend themselves. And yes, no matter how unfair it is (is there anything fair about rape?), women putting themselves in dangerous situations too, too often spells big trouble. I'm with you 100% on that.

The point I was trying to make is that while covering your butt is important, I was trying to address the larger issue; how men develop the mental capacity to rape someone. That is a (mostly) learned behavior, and major steps need to be taken educationally, socially and culturally to change (some) men's views of women as "whores", "bitches" and "hoes". This dehumanization mind-set removes the humanity from women and makes taking what you want from them that much easier. Rape is psychological; it's about power, not sex. If rape was about being out-of-control horny, that'd be a much harder fight. But it's not, it's a mind set towards women (and usually people in general). That mind set needs to fought tooth and nail.

What I meant by "dis-empowering" is, it's no too far of a leap from "avoid this and that" to "well, it's her fault, she was here doing this". Regardless of what she was doing, no woman should be blamed for her rape because she "shouldn't have been doing this here". It's more a theoretical point, but it has implications in reality. Furthermore, feelings of guilt for rape reduces the chances that physical evidence of a rape can be collected and used to prosecute rapists. Women who feel responsible statistically are less likely to report assault (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251040/Rape-Its-fault-victims-say-50-women.html)

Short term; arm women from attack
Long term: fight the mind set that sets up future rapists

Btw, what kind of self-defense do you teach? I took many years of Taekwondo, earned my red belt before I had to quit and am getting ready to start Krav Maga, I'm super stoked to begin!

Kal'Stang said:

I wouldn't say that it is "acceptable". Common certainly...but not acceptable.

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I've heard some pretty shocking things coming from high-school aged boys...

What was that chant, "no means yes, yes means anal"? I fear this may be more prevalent then we care to admit.

The Mayor sees no moral dilemma with killing the assailant to prevent a rape. ITMO it isn't even necessary to prove that no recourse, such as flight or pepperspray were available.

Assualt is a different matter. In the Mayor's experience, the damn LAPD shot a crazy old bag lady, fatally, when she lunged at two healthy twenty year old thugs with badges as they attempted to repossess the shopping cart she'd taken. There were clear alternatives to deadly force, but, being thugs with badges, the nice young men got away with killing an old lady.

If the damn cops can do it for simple assault, clearly it's okay for everyone else, right?

Silence said:

The thing is though that the large majority of rapes aren't committed by a stranger, they're committed by someone the woman knows, and in many cases trusts. To expect us to be on our guard at all time, ready to draw our weapons at a moments notice seems unreasonable. While I agree that women do need to take some precautions for our own safety we also need to do more to change a culture where date rape is acceptable and common.

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What's really needed is a culture where the concept of rape isn't diluted with the word "date".

It's either rape.

Or it's not.

I truly doubt that most men can relate to this with the proper mind set, not being subject to such violent attacks, for the most part.

Rape is not about sex, it's about control and violence.

I do wish there was a way we could punish some people in a manner that would have the long lasting metal issues that they subject women to.

Mayor Snorkum said:

What's really needed is a culture where the concept of rape isn't diluted with the word "date".

It's either rape.

Or it's not.

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The date in date rape implies knowing the attacker. It's not really a literal descriptor and I don't think the law makes any distinction between "regular" rape and "date" rape.

At least I hope to god it doesn't...

But yes, it's all rape and it's all horrific.

Councilman said:

I truly doubt that most men can relate to this with the proper mind set, not being subject to such violent attacks, for the most part.

Rape is not about sex, it's about control and violence.

I do wish there was a way we could punish some people in a manner that would have the long lasting metal issues that they subject women to.

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Amen. The rapist serves a few years in jails, gets buff, maybe learns how to be a better and harder to catch rapist, gets three hots and a cot and is out to live their life.

The victim, meanwhile, gets to suffer depression, nightmares, self-loathing, social shunning, higher rates of drug/alcohol abuse and suicide, broken relationships and familial abandonment and the ever present knowledge that they were made a victim through no choice of their own. The victim is the one who gets the life sentence.

What do you suggest, within the boundary of the Constitution?

RadicalModerate said:

The date in date rape implies knowing the attacker. It's not really a literal descriptor and I don't think the law makes any distinction between "regular" rape and "date" rape.

At least I hope to god it doesn't...

But yes, it's all rape and it's all horrific.

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Nope.

using the word "date" modifies the word rape, and by it's application to the concepts of unwanted groping, or simply the broad having second thoughts the morning after, has reduced the impact of the concept of rape itself.

it's either rape.

or it's not.

That the assailant is most likely known by the victim is true most of the time, regardless.

Mayor Snorkum said:

Nope.

using the word "date" modifies the word rape, and by it's application to the concepts of unwanted groping, or simply the broad having second thoughts the morning after, has reduced the impact of the concept of rape itself.

it's either rape.

or it's not.

That the assailant is most likely known by the victim is true most of the time, regardless.

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When you say "modifies the word rape", do you mean legally or in terms of interpretation by the listener?

Unwanted groping is legally sexual assault. I don't see how date rape applies to the "broad" having second thoughts.

I don't think I understand your statement exactly, please elaborate.

It's my understanding (and I could be wrong), that in a situation of self defense deadly force is authorized in many jurisdictions. Since rape is as much a physical assault as anything, self defense qualifies and thus does deadly force.

Now, from a more emotional standpoint..if I didn't kill the bastard when he was doing it I'd find a way to kill him afterwards.

The Florida law is a self-defense, self-protection law. It has four key components:

It establishes that law-abiding residents and visitors may legally presume the threat of bodily harm or death from anyone who breaks into a residence or occupied vehicle and may use defensive force, including deadly force, against the intruder.

In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense.

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Florida 'Stand Your Ground' Law Explained

I agree with the bold.

Mayor Snorkum said:

What's really needed is a culture where the concept of rape isn't diluted with the word "date".

It's either rape.

Or it's not.

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It's all rape, and it's all equally traumatic to the victim. I used the word 'date' in front simply to distinguish it from the stranger in a dark alley rape where being armed or knowing self-defense might be useful. But then again it might not be, it's not an unreasonable response to freeze up when confronted with danger.

Perpetrators are not charged with date rape, they are charged with rape. When they're charged at all that it, which isn't often, but that's another topic.

A person being physically attacked, either sexually or violently, in my eyes has the right to use deadly force. In terms of a physically forced rape or violence in general, defending oneself with the least amount of force can lead to a permanent physical disability or death. Why should a victim of such a crime roll the dice with their life? They cannot know how things will turn out. They should be able to permanently end the threat of such a violation with no fear of retaliation against them. If it were up to me, they would never be bothered about killing another for these reasons. I'd also support a quick execution of those who disagree with their ability to defend themselves in such a manner and want to criminalize a person's right to eliminate such horrible threats to their life.

RadicalModerate said:

When you say "modifies the word rape", do you mean legally or in terms of interpretation by the listener?

Unwanted groping is legally sexual assault. I don't see how date rape applies to the "broad" having second thoughts.

I don't think I understand your statement exactly, please elaborate.

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you've never heard of the broad that cried wolf before?

And yes, in the eyes of the public, there is now "rape", wherein a complete stranger assaults a woman violently and sexually, and "date rape", in many cases of which the woman is strongly suspected of being a ****-teasing slut.

Welcome to modern American culture.

Silence said:

It's all rape, and it's all equally traumatic to the victim. I used the word 'date' in front simply to distinguish it from the stranger in a dark alley rape where being armed or knowing self-defense might be useful. But then again it might not be, it's not an unreasonable response to freeze up when confronted with danger.

Perpetrators are not charged with date rape, they are charged with rape. When they're charged at all that it, which isn't often, but that's another topic.

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Right.

you modified the term because not all "rape" today is rape as it was once known. The Mayor cannot help that you're defending the dilution of the term, but you're going to continue to deny that the term has been diluted because it's been programmed into you to use certain phrases without conscious study of their meanings. Can't help you there.

But, if you're going to discuss rape, discuss rape and don't worry about the adjectrivial parsing.

Mayor Snorkum said:

you've never heard of the broad that cried wolf before?

And yes, in the eyes of the public, there is now "rape", wherein a complete stranger assaults a woman violently and sexually, and "date rape", in many cases of which the woman is strongly suspected of being a ****-teasing slut.

Welcome to modern American culture.

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the "broad"? wtf?

Bodhisattva said:

It was Demon of Light... seriously.

Rape is very serious, and I agree that it should have the Death Penalty attached to it for clear cut "Attacker Rape" or whatever you want to call it. Date rape or rape where they started and then she wants to stop and he doesn't stop, as bad as that is, no DP. Just a long prison sentence where they get to be the raped.

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It wasnt him lol
it was here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/99150-slutwalk-8.html#post1059493517

and here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/99150-slutwalk-9.html#post1059494169


BUT im glad the vast majority is on board and agree killing a rapist is fine

Mayor Snorkum said:

in many cases of which the woman is strongly suspected of being a ****-teasing slut.

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That's really offensive.

No, means no. If a guy feels he's been lead on, it doesn't give him the right to have sex. As stated above, the "date" in date rape indicates the woman knew her attacker.

VanceMack said:

I will be honest...I wont shoot to protect my 'stuff.'

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I will.

Mayor Snorkum said:

in many cases of which the woman is strongly suspected of being a ****-teasing slut.

Welcome to modern American culture.

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Are you justifying rape? or making light of it? These sort of retarded comments are the perfect example of why society is still in the infant stages of civilization.

evanescence said:

Are you justifying rape? or making light of it? These sort of retarded comments are the perfect example of why society is still in the infant stages of civilization.

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I think he was pointing out American culture tends to see rape as at least partially the victims fault. I doubt he was stating that as a positive or justifiable action.

And he has a point when it comes to "crying wolf". How about the Duke lacrosse players? A tired point, sure, but it still holds. It was completely unacceptable for a person to exploit the seriousness of rape for personal gain or whatever reason she had to lie. And as a culture, we immediately assumed the Duke students were guilty. The media firestorm and public outrage were directed at people innocent of the crime they were accused of.

In the big picture, the seriousness of a rape accusation endows the claimer with a large amount of power. Exploiting the inherently tricky concept of "consent" in order to falsely charge someone with rape is abhorrent.