View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #61
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron
    "Communism hasn't killed anyone." - Khayembii Communique

    "Communism hasn't killed anyone." - NGNM85

    Oh, well. No intelligent conversation to be had here.
    I agree there's no intelligent conversation to be had with someone that makes the outrageous claims you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper
    As a whole, no. Having said that, I'd like to see some return to McCarthyism-like witch hunts in America. Quite frankly, if you live in America and don't appreciate capitalism, get the hell out. There are many other socialist hellholes that would welcome your ilk. Unfortunately, there aren't many global options like America where you can avoid hyper-taxation and excessive governmental control.
    There aren't any "socialist hellholes".

    According to anyone on the dumb side of center, anyone who dies from anything remotely considered a natural cause died of communism.
    FTFY

    Communism is the spirit of anti-competition. To think that people would always "do the right thing" without incentivization is just downright stupid.
    LOL yes people require incentives to "do the right thing" that's why the financial crisis happened right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Dan
    Ideology is the key word. Rusell Kirk and Robert Conquest are good sources of scholarship on the topic.
    LOL they aren't good for much aside from cold war propagandizing.

    A number of economic historians have applied really good statistical approaches to this period which, in conjunction with archival evidence, have pretty much demolished the old figures of 20+ million deaths ascribed by Conquest and his ilk to the Stalin period.

    Today the generally accepted range (largely formulated by statistical or economic historians such as Nove, Ellman, RW Davies and Wheatcroft) tends to be around the 10 million mark for the period 1927-38. Of this figure around 1-1.5 million are believed to be the result of direct repression (ie, execution or death in prison) with the remaining 7-8 million being due to famine pre-1936.

    Of course the entire point of this isn't to downplay what happened (which I'm sure someone is about to accuse me of doing), but rather to counter the playing up of these historical developments for propaganda purposes.


    But even your example does not necessarily lead to rule by authoritarians
    Rule by authoritarians is a tautology. Rule is always authoritarian, by the very definition of the word - rule of authority.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  2. #62
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I would like to see the knowledge behind this...
    Socialism is the system where most of the capital in the economy is owned by the state, Where the government regulates your life.

    However, what's nice is that we have a index which rank these kind of factors, and where do Scandinavian countries end up. Hardly what I would call socialist countries. And not only that, apart from Norway who can live on oil revenues, they have all increased their economic freedom more than other countries.
    8 Denmark 78.6
    9 United States 77.8
    17 Finland 74.0
    22 Sweden 71.9
    30 Norway 70.3
    64 France 64.6
    175 Venezuela 37.6
    176 Eritrea 36.7
    177 Cuba 27.7
    178 Zimbabwe 22.1
    179 North Korea 1.0

    http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

    But you may say that they may have other freedoms, but they have really high governmental spending. Not really, here is GDP spending for 2008 and 2009, not all countries are included after UK. Their spending is higher, but not by very much. They are not socialist, Scandinavian countries are not even the most left wing countries in Europe economically.

    Denmark 51.90 || 58.42
    Finland 49.35 || 56.25
    France 52.86 || 56.20
    Sweden 51.68 || 55.15
    Belgium 50.11 || 54.11
    Austria 49.30 || 52.97
    Greece 49.65 || 52.85
    Italy 48.83 || 51.83
    United Kingdom 47.42 || 51.45
    Norway 40.59 || 46.32
    United States || 36.87 || 42.19
    Switzerland 32.23 || 33.74

    http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-17-11 at 06:53 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Socialism is the system where most of the capital in the economy is owned by the state, Where the government regulates your life.
    Wrong. Socialism is where the workplace is democratically owned and controlled by the workers. Where the workplace is owned in a co-op fashion.
    It has nothing to do with the "government regulating your life"


  4. #64
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Wrong. Socialism is where the workplace is democratically owned and controlled by the workers. Where the workplace is owned in a co-op fashion.
    So, you believe in a system you don't even know the definition of? No wonder people like you create hellholes where you force people to work for the government.

    This is the definition of socialism.
    Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled co-operatively
    Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you believe wikipedia is wrong, and you're right then you should be able to modify wikipedia.

  5. #65
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    So, you believe in a system you don't even know the definition of? No wonder people like you create hellholes where you force people to work for the government.

    This is the definition of socialism.
    Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled co-operatively
    Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you believe wikipedia is wrong, and you're right then you should be able to modify wikipedia.
    You are aware you just proved his case, right?

    You can't really get more publicly or commonly owned than a workplace controlled by its workers.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 05-17-11 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Nothing should be condemned until it has a full, independent. non-partisan hearing, not just a political knee-jerk reaction.

    ricksfolly

  7. #67
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    So, you believe in a system you don't even know the definition of? No wonder people like you create hellholes where you force people to work for the government.

    This is the definition of socialism.
    Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled co-operatively
    Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you believe wikipedia is wrong, and you're right then you should be able to modify wikipedia.
    Thank you for proving my point!


  8. #68
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You are aware you just proved his case, right?

    You can't really get more publicly or commonly owned than a workplace controlled by its workers.
    Logical fallacy.

    I never said that the workplace won't be owned by the workers in socialism.

    I said that socialism is where the means of production is owned by the state. This is genereally what happends, because someone got to to look over it. He said wrong, and that socialism is only about the workplace owned by the workers, so he obviously don't know his own ideology. In fact, there are more to socialism than just workplaces owned by it's workers. Because it's supposed to be commenly owned across the country/community, and across all sectors.

  9. #69
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Logical fallacy.

    I never said that the workplace won't be owned by the workers in socialism.

    I said that socialism is where the means of production is owned by the state. This is genereally what happends, because someone got to to look over it. He said wrong, and that socialism is only about the workplace owned by the workers, so he obviously don't know his own ideology. In fact, there are more to socialism than just workplaces owned by it's workers. Because it's supposed to be commenly owned across the country/community, and across all sectors.
    Your definition does not bring the state into it, that is your interpretation of it.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Thank you for proving my point!
    No, I debunked your point. You wrote
    Socialism is where the workplace is democratically owned and controlled by the workers.

    When in fact socialism is
    Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled co-operatively

    Can you point at where workplace is in that sentence? Workplaces controlled and owned by the workers are only a part of socialism and they are controlled is not a requirement.

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