View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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  • Yes

    20 38.46%
  • No

    30 57.69%
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    2 3.85%
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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #271
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    *Unwanted typo. Borrowed cellphone keeps posting words I don't want to post. I meant "were",

    Cool, I just wanted to be clear.

  2. #272
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Ignoring the myriad untruths and misconceptions plaguing this discussion, the fact remains that if we indict capitalism in the same sense, by the same loose criteria, the bodycount is drastically higher. Were our resident specialists in fake outrage actually serious in their convictions, they couldn't possibly support it.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  3. #273
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Ignoring the myriad untruths and misconceptions plaguing this discussion, the fact remains that if we indict capitalism in the same sense, by the same loose criteria, the bodycount is drastically higher. Were our resident specialists in fake outrage actually serious in their convictions, they couldn't possibly support it.
    What counts as "drastically higher", NGNM85?

  4. #274
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    What counts as "drastically higher", NGNM85?
    The number of deaths you, quite incorrectly, attribute to 'communism', plus millions more.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    The number of deaths you, quite incorrectly, attribute to 'communism', plus millions more.
    Do elaborate.

  6. #276
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Do elaborate.
    "Like others, Ryan reasonably selects as Exhibit A of the criminal indictment the Chinese famines of 1958-61, with a death toll of 25-40 million, he reports, a sizeable chunk of the 100 million corpses the "recording angels" attribute to "Communism" (whatever that is, but let us use the conventional term). The terrible atrocity fully merits the harsh condemnation it has received for many years, renewed here. It is, furthermore, proper to attribute the famine to Communism. That conclusion was established most authoritatively in the work of economist Amartya Sen, whose comparison of the Chinese famine to the record of democratic India received particular attention when he won the Nobel Prize a few years ago. Writing in the early 1980s, Sen observed that India had suffered no such famine. He attributed the India-China difference to India's "political system of adversarial journalism and opposition," while in contrast, China's totalitarian regime suffered from "misinformation" that undercut a serious response, and there was "little political pressure" from opposition groups and an informed public (Jean Dreze and Amartya Sen, Hunger and Public Action, 1989; they estimate deaths at 16.5 to 29.5 million).

    The example stands as a dramatic "criminal indictment" of totalitarian Communism, exactly as Ryan writes. But before closing the book on the indictment we might want to turn to the other half of Sen's India-China comparison, which somehow never seems to surface despite the emphasis Sen placed on it. He observes that India and China had "similarities that were quite striking" when development planning began 50 years ago, including death rates. "But there is little doubt that as far as morbidity, mortality and longevity are concerned, China has a large and decisive lead over India" (in education and other social indicators as well). He estimates the excess of mortality in India over China to be close to 4 million a year: "India seems to manage to fill its cupboard with more skeletons every eight years than China put there in its years of shame," 1958-1961 (Dreze and Sen).

    In both cases, the outcomes have to do with the "ideological predispositions" of the political systems: for China, relatively equitable distribution of medical resources, including rural health services, and public distribution of food, all lacking in India. This was before 1979, when "the downward trend in mortality [in China] has been at least halted, and possibly reversed," thanks to the market reforms instituted that year.

    Overcoming amnesia, suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The "criminal indictment" of the "democratic capitalist experiment" becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that "Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not]," returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the "third world." But "you can't make an omelette without broken eggs," as Stalin would have said. The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly "colossal" record of skeletons and "absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering" (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years."

    -Noam Chomsky, Counting the Bodies
    Spectre Magazine

    (My emphasis.)
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  7. #277
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    This poll reads like a child who just learned about political and economical systems at the same time and didnt get to the next chapter yet. Truth is you need a little of both of those with nice big chunks of democracy and capitalism for a country to work. If our country was totally 100% capitalism we would be screwed. Specifically the poor. If it were totally a real democracy we would get even less done. People like you make me think test before one votes isn that bad of an idea.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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