View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #201
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    This is nonsense. They were not spreading ideas, they were spreading propaganda. Referring to Nazi propaganda as "ideas" is a bit repulsive.
    Maybe this disagreement is a misunderstanding based on terminology. If you want to call dangerous ideas "propaganda" and then agree, fine, I can live with that. I was using the term "advancing ideas" as superordinate concept that includes the advancing of "propaganda". But I don't want to fight over words. If you insist propaganda and ideas are two different things, I'm fine with that.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  2. #202
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Give me a minute, I edit alot.


    No, propaganda is not "dangerous ideas". Propaganda is BS made up to look like reality for influence. Propaganda is to idea as fraud is to free-market... a perversion of.



    Anyway, I don't see how you can be in the middle when you think racism comes from the right. Your positions on the right are few. I vote Lean left.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 05-20-11 at 09:26 AM.

  3. #203
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    If you believe that the left must be twisted to have bigots, but the right is built for them then you must lean left or be a moderate tolerating bigotry. If I believed that the left was against bigotry and the right bred it, I would be a radical leftist.
    No, I don't believe that.

    But I believe racism is the core and a fundamental part of far-right ideology (hell, it's part of the definition of "Nazi"), so you can't really be a Nazi, i.e., without being a racist of some kind.

    But racism, no matter how prevalent among socialists, is not an inherent part of their ideology. Did Marx address race? I'm no expert, but I believe Marx even said "race" and "nation" are bourgeois concepts used by the powers that be to further division among the working classes of different nations, in order to control them better. That doesn't mean, of course, that there are no racist socialists. There may be plenty.

    You can say many bad things about socialism, but that racism is an inherent part of their ideology is not one of them.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #204
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself.

    As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.
    Whats interesting is that, given this definition (from wikipedia), everything from what the Nazi's published to Common Sense by Thomas Payne would fit.

  5. #205
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Give me a minute, I edit alot.


    No, propaganda is not "dangerous ideas". Propaganda is BS made up to look like reality for influence. Propaganda is to idea as fraud is to free-market... a perversion of.
    Fair enough. Following your definitions, I'd say you're right ideas are not the problem, but propaganda may be, under certain conditions.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  6. #206
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    You can say many bad things about socialism, but that racism is an inherent part of their ideology is not one of them.
    Fascism is not inherently racist, just because Nazis were. Fascism is not some kind of automatic Godwin.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 05-20-11 at 09:31 AM.

  7. #207
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Anyway, I don't see how you can be in the middle when you think racism comes from the right. Your positions on the right are few. I vote Lean left.
    For the record, I want to explain my stance on racism:

    I believe racism, as one variant of in-group/out-group generalization, is inherent to human nature. It's an instinctive reaction of many people to generalize and also attach negative attributes to people they perceive as "alien" (note: this is descriptive, not normative, I'm not defending this). People of all ideologies do that. Certain values and/or ideologies may try to place a counter-weight against this instinctive reaction, by promoting tolerance. But this is only successful to a limited extent.

    There are ideologies that place some emphasis on battling these base instincts and ugly impulses, and there are ideologies which actively affirm this instinctive behavior. Nazism, i.e., actively affirms racist impulses among their followers. Other ideologies, such as liberalism i.e., rather emphasize equal value of human beings and rather condemn these impulses.

    My impression is that socialism, while it may affirm this in-group/out-group impulse on the field of wealth ("we" the poor, "them" the rich), it does not affirm this on the field of race. Socialists rather tend towards condemning racism as an ideology that distracts from "class struggle", or not to care. Which does not mean, of course, that there are no racist socialists.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  8. #208
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    You are willing to equate fascism with Nazism, but you are not willing to equate socialism (or even communism) with Pot, Mao or Stalin.

    I know you like the idea of moderate, as in 'moderated stances, not extreme', but you lean left. That's clear from your posts alone. This only makes it sure. I've spoken my peace on that, stick with moderate if you like it better.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 05-20-11 at 09:42 AM.

  9. #209
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Fascism is not inherently racist, just because Nazis were. Fascism is not some kind of automatic Godwin.
    I didn't say anything about fascism.

    When I said "far-right", I had the German example in mind (the neo-Nazi NPD, which fortunately is a fringe phenomenon). And they are racists and neo-Nazis.

    If you ask me about fascism, I'd say I condemn fascism, because it's authoritarian, much like I condemn Nazism because it's authoritarian, or authoritarian brands of socialism aka communism. My point was just that not all "socialists" are authoritarian, and that many groups/movements labelled "socialist" actually are not socialist.
    Last edited by German guy; 05-20-11 at 09:51 AM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  10. #210
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You are willing to equate fascism with Nazism, but you are not willing to equate socialism with Pot, Mao or Stalin.
    That's because socialism is a less distinct label as "fascism" or "Nazism". There are many parties with the name "socialist" which are harmless and not authoritarian, and even more parties/movements are often labelled "socialist", although they don't even consider themselves socialist.

    Do you ask me to equate Obama, i.e., or German Social Democrats, with Pot, Mao or Stalin? Some seem to ask me to do that, and that's the point where I disagree.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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