View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #151
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    ALFONS:

    The Soviet model was more akin to state capitalists.
    I agree with you on a lot of points, apart from this one.

    This is bull****, and is just socialists trying to shift the blame of something they did on someone else.

    The soviet model was a Marxism–Leninism socialist model.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    The soviet model was a Marxism–Leninism socialist model.
    What is "the Soviet model" and how is it "Marxist-Leninist"?

    BTW another good point I always like to bring up in these threads yet forget is that the "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people and always does" argument doesn't really hold any water, as evidenced by many of the Eastern Bloc countries. I wonder how many here that make the claim (Wake and Alfons in this thread) know about former Jugoslavia under Tito and how he was quite a good friend of many western capitalist countries, the US included? China and the USSR are always mentioned, if they're really digging they'll mention Pol Pot, yet these states are never mentioned. I wonder why...

    Of course, this argument is presuming that the non-definition used by these cold war dinosaurs is accurate, which it isn't.

    Tito sought to improve life. Unlike others who rose to power on the communist wave after World War II, Tito did not long demand that his people suffer for a distant vision of a better life. After an initial Soviet-influenced bleak period, Tito moved toward radical improvement of life in the country. Yugoslavia gradually became a bright spot amid the general grayness of Eastern Europe.
    —The New York Times, May 5, 1980
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 05-19-11 at 12:57 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  3. #153
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    What is "the Soviet model" and how is it "Marxist-Leninist"?
    This should be a good answer.


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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    I've never been harmed by nazim or socizm or comizm. The correct political socio-economic system will always be determined by the will of the people. Often, however, that determination is too late for more than a few.
    Last edited by Risky Thicket; 05-19-11 at 12:59 AM.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    I'd forgot to add that I was in the military, which was very close to living under pure socialism and I didn't like it. The last 10 or so years living under raw capitalism has been no day at the beach either.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    What is "the Soviet model" and how is it "Marxist-Leninist"?
    Marxism

  7. #157
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    LOL wow that was like the biggest non-response in the world. Let me ask some more specific questions, see if you can pin down what you're actually saying for us to respond. Let's start with a really easy question for you: Is "the Soviet model" to which you are referring that of the NEP period or of collectivisation? Further, if you choose one or the other, then the other by definition is not "the Soviet model". How can you reconcile your assertion with the fact that you are being hypocritical and claiming that "the Soviet model" includes both the NEP period as well as collectivisation, which are mutually exclusive?

    Finally, how does one claim such hypocrisy is advocated either by Marx or Lenin, the former never even setting out a concrete economic model for a post-revolutionary state and the latter being alive only in the early days of NEP and never lived to see collectivisation under Stalin?

    BTW Camlon don't feel alone on this one it applies equally to hazlnut though I'm giving you more **** for it because you made the silly claim that Marx or Lenin advocated what happened to the Soviet Union.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 05-19-11 at 01:09 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    LOL wow that was like the biggest non-response in the world. Let me ask some more specific questions, see if you can pin down what you're actually saying for us to respond. Let's start with a really easy question for you: Is "the Soviet model" to which you are referring that of the NEP period or of collectivisation? Further, if you choose one or the other, then the other by definition is not "the Soviet model". How can you reconcile your assertion with the fact that you are being hypocritical and claiming that "the Soviet model" includes both the NEP period as well as collectivisation, which are mutually exclusive?
    Actually, there were not that much difference between Lenin and Stalin. To make "communism" sound better, Lenin is often presented as the good guy, while Stalin is the one who corrupted the system.

    It was Lenin, not Stalin who made the first Gulags.

    Lenin didn't believe in a fair justice system where you are innocent before proven guilty, but we should see instead how dangerous they are to society. This meant that he murder a lot of innocent people. Lenin was the one who started to fight against religion and Lenin wasn't very cooperative with other factions. There are differences betweem them, but Soviet didn't change substantially from Lenin to Stalin and therefore I put it under the same label. Stalin just expanded on what Lenin started.

    BTW: Lenin may think that Stalin went too far, but the mass killings are not really part of the ideology. We are talking more about the economic system, which Lenin approved. It is called marxism-lenninism because Lenin based his theories on marx. Approval from Marx is not neccecary.
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-19-11 at 03:44 AM.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    So in other words you can't answer the question and instead wanted to go off on some irrelevant rant about how Lenin and Stalin are the same.

    Would you like to try to actually answer the question or would you just like us to accept that you don't know what you're talking about?

    It was Lenin, not Stalin who made the first Gulags.
    GULag wasn't formed until April 25, 1930, years after Lenin died.

    If you are referring to work camps, those were around for decades, if not centuries, before the Russian Revolution. The work camps at the time Lenin was active resembled in absolutely no way the work camps under the GULag system from the 30's onward. Professional historians recognize that the conditions at the work camps were relatively well off until around the 30's.

    For an example as to how these were transformed one can merely review the numbers: In 1928, there were 30,000 prisoners in work camps; by 1932, 200,000; and finally by 1935, 1.1 million.

    Further, one can review primary sources validating the vast improvements in the conditions of the camps from the Imperial period to the early revolutionary period.

    BTW if you are interested in the actual history of the GULag system, and not the propaganda spewed out by Applebaum et al, I would highly suggest Dr. Khlevniuk's work The History of the Gulag: From Collectivization to the Great Terror. In it he explains this transformation of the Russian/Soviet penal system and, basically, why you don't know what you're talking about.

    There are differences betweem them, but Soviet didn't change substantially from Lenin to Stalin and therefore I put it under the same label.
    HAHAHA yes, of course it did. You can't tell me that collectivisation under Stalin was "not a substantial change" from the NEP when Lenin was alive. BTW, in case you haven't understood this yet, NEP (tolerance of limited private entrepreneurship) and collectivisation (expropriation of private enterprise) are essentially polar opposites.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 05-19-11 at 05:05 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    So in other words you can't answer the question and instead wanted to go off on some irrelevant rant about how Lenin and Stalin are the same.
    No, I tell you that the system of governemnt didn't change that much. You are just idolizing Lening, because then you can make socialism look better. You want to blame all the faults of communism on Stalin, when in fact it was doomed to fail from the begining.

    If you are referring to work camps, those were around for decades, if not centuries, before the Russian Revolution. The work camps at the time Lenin was active resembled in absolutely no way the work camps under the GULag system from the 30's onward. Professional historians recognize that the conditions at the work camps were relatively well off until around the 30's.
    Not true, read this from wikipedoia

    From 1918, camp-type detention facilities were set up, as a reformed analogy of the earlier system of penal labor (katorgas), operated in Siberia in Imperial Russia. The two main types were "Vechecka Special-purpose Camps" (особые лагеря ВЧК, osobiye lagerya VChK) and forced labor camps (лагеря принудительных работ, lagerya prinuditel'nikh rabot). They were installed for various categories of people deemed dangerous for the state: for common criminals, for prisoners of the Russian Civil War, for officials accused of corruption, sabotage and embezzlement, various political enemies and dissidents, as well as former aristocrats, businessmen and large land owners.

    If Lenin was such a good guy then why did he do this?



    Also read this

    HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS COMMITTED DURING LENIN'S RULE

    V.I. Lenin was the founding father of the Soviet Union and its dictator during the Russian Civil War that followed. A series of strokes after the Civil War, and his early death in 1924, gave him a mere five years to reign. The brevity of his tenure led many to assume that subsequent human rights abuses in the Soviet Union were not Lenin's fault. Oppression did intensify after Stalin replaced Lenin as the absolute ruler of the USSR. But Lenin did everything that Stalin would later do, except execute fellow Communists. As Richard Pipes notes, this "is not as significant as it may appear at first sight. Towards outsiders, people not belonging to his order of the elect - and that included 99.7 percent of his compatriots - Lenin showed no human feelings whatever..." (Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime)

    Lenin repeatedly indicated that large-scale killing would be necessary to bring in his utopia, and did not shrink from this realization. His speeches and writings overflow with calls for blood: "Merciless war against these kulaks! Death to them." "We'll ask the man, where do you stand on the question of the revolution? Are you for it or against it? If he's against it, we'll stand him up against a wall." As Pipes sums up, "Lenin hated what he perceived to be the 'bourgeoisie' with a destructive passion that fully equaled Hitler's hatred of the Jews: nothing short of physical annihilation would satisfy him." Moreover, "The term 'bourgeoisie' the Bolsheviks applied loosely to two groups: those who by virtue of their background or position in the economy functioned as 'exploiters,' be they a millionaire industrialist or a peasant with an extra acre of land, and those who, regardless of their economic or social status, opposed Bolshevik policies." (Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime) Lenin used all three of the tools of mass murder that his successors and imitators would later perfect.

    Deaths due to extreme hardship conditions in slave labor camps

    Lenin's secret police, the Cheka, pioneered the development of the modern slave labor (or "concentration") camp. Inmates were generally frankly treated as government-owned slaves, and used for the most demanding work - such as digging arctic canals - while receiving pitifully small rations. As Pipes explains, "Soviet concentration camps, as instituted in 1919, were meant to be a place of confinement for all kinds of undesirables, whether sentenced by courts or by administrative organs. Liable to confinement in them were not only individuals but also 'categories of individuals' - that is, entire classes: Dzerzhinskii at one point proposed that special concentration camps be erected for the 'bourgeoisie.' Living in forced isolation, the inmates formed a pool of slave labor on which Soviet administrative and economic institutions could draw at no cost." (The Russian Revolution) The number of people in these camps according to Pipes was about 50,000 prisoners in 1920 and 70,000 in 1923; many of these did not survive the inhuman conditions. The inmates might be bourgeoisie, or peasants, or members of other socialist factors such as the Mensheviks or the Social Revolutionaries, or members of ethnicities thought to be hostile to the Bolsheviks, such as the Don Cossacks. The death rates in these camps appear to have been in the extreme hardship range of 10-30%. While the number thus killed was only a small percentage of the total exterminated under Lenin's regime, it laid the foundation for Stalin's slave labor empire.

    Deaths due to man-made famine

    By far the largest number of unnatural deaths for which Lenin and his cohorts were responsible resulted from famine. Lenin and his regime tried to depict the famine as simply bad luck, but the truth is rather different. To feed his troops and keep the cities producing munitions, Lenin needed food. He got it by "requisitioning" it from the peasantry - demanding delivery of large sums of food for little or nothing in exchange. This led peasants to drastically reduce their crop production. In retaliation, Lenin often ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence, sometimes ordering the confiscation of their seed grain as a further sanction. The Cheka and the army began by shooting hostages, and ended by waging a second full-scale civil war against the recalcitrant peasantry.

    The ultimate results of this war against the peasantry were devastating. Official Soviet reports admitted that fully 30 million Soviet citizens were in danger of death by starvation. The White forces shared little of the blame: as Pipes notes, the Civil War was essentially over by the beginning of 1920, but Lenin continued his harsh exploitation of the peasantry for yet another year. Moreover, the areas under White control had actually built up a food surplus. The horrific famine of 1921 was thus much less severe in 1920, because after the reconquest of the Ukraine and other White territories, the Reds shipped the Whites' grain reserves to Petrograd, Moscow, and other cities with less hunger but more political clout. Low estimates on the deaths from this famine are about 3 million; high estimates go up to 10 million - which would probably have been much higher if not for foreign relief efforts which Lenin had the good sense to permit. For perspective, the last severe famine in Russia hit in 1891-92, and cost about 400,000 lives.

    The famine ended soon after Lenin relaxed his choke-hold on the peasantry, but he showed no sign of remorse for what his policies had done. Other Bolsheviks were shaken by the events, but Lenin's successor, Joseph Stalin, learned only to husband his strength until the peasantry could be utterly broken.

    Executions

    Under Lenin's rule - unlike that of his successors - executions played a far more important role than deaths in forced labor camps. The primary function of Lenin's secret police, the Cheka, was carrying out summary executions of "class enemies" in what came to be known as the Red Terror. The exact number murdered is usually estimated at between 100,000 and 500,000, but the chaotic wartime conditions make the accounting especially difficult. Large-scale executions of hostages began after a failed effort of the Social Revolutionaries to seize power in mid-1918. (The hundreds of hostages shot in "retaliation," however, not only did not participate in the failed coup, but almost invariably had no affiliation of any kind with the SRs). From then on the Red Terror turned in every conceivable direction: execution of the bourgeoisie and Czarist sympathizers; execution of White POWs and friendly civilian populations; and finally execution of Lenin's socialist opponents.

    A lot of the numbers are given here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

    For instance
    by May 1919, there were some 16,000 enemies of the people imprisoned in the Tsarist katorga labour camps; by September 1921 the prisoner populace exceeded 70,000.[84][85][86][87][88][89]
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-19-11 at 05:58 AM.

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