View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #141
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    where it did not work well (venezuela)
    Im about to rant!!!!


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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Child labor isn't a very solid argument. Children, elderly, and infirm citizens are working for pennies a day in sweat shops in communist countries all over the world. Most often, they're working in dangerous, unhealthy conditions with few rights.
    .... which communist countries? There are 4-6 countries which could be considered to be 'communist'. Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, China and....Seychelles? Chances are that if you work in a sweat shop, you're making Wal-Mart's clothing.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Child labor isn't a very solid argument. Children, elderly, and infirm citizens are working for pennies a day in sweat shops in communist countries all over the world. Most often, they're working in dangerous, unhealthy conditions with few rights.
    The same goes for many nonsocialist countries though.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    But this anti-Semitism is in no way representative for "the left" or "socialists" in general. In fact, it's a no-go in Germany -- advancing anti-semitic statements is a total carreer killer for politicians. You can be sure that there is a consensus among the established parties and mainstream journalism to condemn such a thing.
    Didn't say it was representative among socialist, but a substantial amount of socialists are anti-semetic. If Israel was a muslim country, it would get a lot less criticism from the socialists in Europe and a lot more from the far right in Europe.

    Also, not every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. Yet people critical of Israel are easily attacked with this anti-Semitism sledgehammer. That doesn't mean, of course, that there are no Israel critics who happen to be anti-Semites, those exist too, of course. There are more extreme Israel critics who are indeed influenced by traditional anti-Semite memes, without even consciously noticing that. But that's a mere fringe phenomenon.
    This is not a fringe element. The socialist party of Norway (Norway is normally considered a tolerant country) had the occupation as a theme in their summer camp. I was there, many years ago. They showed this picture. http://www.friendsofsabeel.org.uk/im...stine_maps.jpg

    Which is completly historical inaccurate, and they always focus on Israel. I have never seen them write anything about Zimbabwe or North Korea. People in those countries are living under much worse conditions. That's why I said we see tendencies, but we also see openly racists among socialists.

    If I had to give a rough estimate, I'd say anti-Semitism among German leftists is not more prevalent than outright racism among American conservatives. And it's similarly coded and veiled. Obvious hardcore anti-Semitism without code and veils exists only on the far-right, as far as I can tell.
    That depends on where you put them. For instance Vigrid in Norway is not economical conservative, but is normally put on extreme right for historical reasons.

    American conservatives are not less racists, but they go after a different group. Far right goes after muslims, while far left go after the jews. Far right is probably somewhat worse, but that's because muslims affect Europe and the US to a greater extent. If Jews were coming instead, and creating their own communities and influencing politics you would probably see more racism from the left.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In terms of socialism, we have examples where it worked well (canada) and examples where it did not work well (venezuela)
    Canada, socialist?!

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Canada, socialist?!
    Sweden, some of the other Scandinavian social democracies might be better examples.

    But yes, some Americans have characterized Canada as being socialist because of their healthcare system.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Sweden, some of the other Scandinavian social democracies might be better examples.

    But yes, some Americans have characterized Canada as being socialist because of their healthcare system.
    If Canada is socialist, then US is a socialist country as well.

    Here is the GDP spending as a percentage of GDP in the US and Canada in 2008.
    Canada: 39.82
    US: 38.94

    Canada is beating the US in heritage economic freedom index. And even labour freedom is nearly as high as the US. Canada information on economic freedom | Facts, data, analysis, charts and more Even Singapore has public health care, and you are allowed to get private insurance if you want more. Is Singapore socialist?


    Sweden is not a socialist country either. Yes, it's more left wing than the US, but France got more regulation than Sweden and just as high governmental spending. If you are going to use an example of socialism, then France would be the best fit, but they are not socialists either. Socialism is not beeing to the left of the US. Socialism is a system where the means of production are owned publically or commenly owned. Normally, this means that the state owns the means of production. Also Socialism should have the goal to spread the wealth. In Sweden the means of production are privatly owned, but regulated, often with help of unions. This is what we call the social democratic model. Also, Sweden is overrated by liberals. Their crime rate is higher than the US and increasing, their wages are lower and they lack proper freedom of speech.

    Canada, US, Switzerland, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand are leaning towards the Anglo-saxon model. In this model we want to keep the economy as free as possible, but still provide welfare for the poor. Hence, in these places unions are weaker, there is less regulation over the work place. For instance, in the US you can fire people at will or in Australia they provide incentives for people to get private insurance.
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-18-11 at 09:36 PM.

  8. #148
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    If Canada is socialist, then so is the US. Here is the GDP spending as a percentage of GDP in the US and Canada in 2008.
    Canada: 39.82
    US: 38.94

    Canada is beating the US in heritage economic freedom index. And even labour freedom is nearly as high as the US. Canada information on economic freedom | Facts, data, analysis, charts and more Even Singapore has public health care, and you are allowed to get private insurance if you want more. Is Singapore socialist?


    Sweden is not a socialist country either. Yes, it's more left wing than the US, but France got more regulation as Sweden and just as high governmental spending. Socialism is not beeing to the left of the US. Socialism is a system where the means of production are owned publically or commenly owned. Normally, this means that the state owns the means of production. Also socialism should have the goal to spread the wealth. In Sweden the means of production are privatly owned, but regulated. This is what we call the social democratic model.
    I agree with everything here. However, social democracy is often included under the "socialist" label, and certainly given it's welfare system I'd say that many, if not most Americans would label it socialist.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #149
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree with everything here. However, social democracy is often included under the "socialist" label, and certainly given it's welfare system I'd say that many, if not most Americans would label it socialist.
    But it's not socialism, socialism is defined quite clearly in wikipedia, and it doesn't fulfill the requirements. Also in the article below, they state quite clearly that it is not socialism.

    Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Some Americans will label it socialist, but the American public don't really know what socialism is.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Can you imagine yourselves that everybody may wear swastika, laugh about Auschwitz, say "Hail Hitler" and broadcast "Main Kampf" as a positive teaching?
    It is impossible and difficult to believe.

    Can you imagine Hitler as avatar here?

    Socialism - Communism has killed at least five times more as Nazism, but no one communist is punished, the devil's red star continue to be on the Kremlin top, the mummy of Lenin is open to show, socialists are allow to spread their lies without any prohibition in all western countries, moreover some medias air the programs about Lenin, Marx, Mao as a very nice guys, who were only "misunderstand".

    It is something wrong here, maybe should begin to condemn Socialism - Communism like Nazism, right?
    ALFONS:

    Let me try to put some things in perspective for you, because you obviously don't understand the words that you are attempting to use.

    Words have meanings, connotations, and denotations. Without a good understanding of a particular word's meaning, you end misusing a word and not accurately communicating your ideas.

    In your OP, you attempt to relate socialism to communism as if they are one in the same. That is just pure ignorance.

    Take a look at this:



    As you can see, although both exist on the left side of the Political Spectrum, they are vastly different on the Libertarian/Authoritarian axis.

    I understand what your are doing by attempting to group socialism in with communism.

    Many on the far-right incorrectly associate President Obama with socialism, and you may be trying to further misinform people by attempting to associate socialism with communism.

    It is apparent that you not have really studied the either type of government, as communism only really existed in theory, never really in practice. The evils you speak of, though called communism, were really not according to Marxist theory.

    The Soviet model was more akin to state capitalists.

    Anyway, I hope this all set you straight on some things.

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