View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #131
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Only if you use a right-wing newspeak definition of "socialism" according to which absolutely everybody except libertarians are "socialist".

    Really, the differences between Nazis and socialists are so numerous it should be obvious that socialists and Nazis don't have more in common than, say, conservatives and socialists.
    German Guy, did the word "Socialist" in "NAZI" bear anything even remotely common to, say, socialism?

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    What are the "Stalinist/Maoist" brands? What makes them different from the "Brezhnevite," "Khrushchevite," "Titoite," "Hoxhaite," "Il Sungite," and all other "brands" of "socialism"?
    My condemnation goes to those brands of socialists who support dictatorship in order to get their ideas through. This has always resulted in mass murder to far, with Stalin and Mao leading this list. It also results in silencing down opposition and a police state. Socialists who support this, or at least don't condemn it entirely but tolerate it, or consider it a necessary evil, are those I believe deserve the same condemnation as Nazis.

    Those socialists who respect pluralist democracy and constitutional state, are running in elections and don't violate the constitution once in power, don't deserve condemnation, IMO. Those non-revolutionary socialists with respect for human right and legal standards.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  3. #133
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    German Guy, did the word "Socialist" in "NAZI" bear anything even remotely common to, say, socialism?
    The Nazis did not nationalize the economy. On the contrary. They continued class warfare on the side of the capital, against labor, by making the company or factory boss "fuhrer of the company" all workers have to obey.

    On basically all other fields, Nazis continued conservative traditions in Germany and their voters were former right-wingers, not socialists. It's true they adopted certain methods from the far-left of that time, but that were just the means. Their ideas and platform were a reactionary continuation of right-wing ideas socialists were bitterly opposed to.

    Race purity ideology? Opposed by socialists, supported by the right.
    Militarism? Opposed by the mostly pacifist socialists, supported by the right.
    Nationalism? Opposed by the mostly internationalist socialists, supported by the right.
    Anti-communism and anti-Marxism? Opposed by the socialists as they were the target of this hatred, supported by the right.
    Pro-colonialist ideas? Opposed by socialists, supported by the right.
    Strict rejection of centrally planned economy? Opposed by socialists, supported by the right.

    This goes on and on. The core ideas of Nazism were based on prevalent right-wing ideas, then taken to the extreme and pimped up with certain far-left means to implement them. Hell, the Nazis even skipped the national flag the left was in favor of (black-red-yellow), but replaced it with the monarchist-conservative colors black-white-red once again. The "intellectual" basis of Nazism was that of the so-called "conservative revolution" in Weimar (look it up).

    The Nazis persecuted and murdered Marxists and socialists, just for your information.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Why was "socialist" contained in NAZI? Are you saying they did not mean it? Like an "oopsie"?

    Do you believe that they had no socialistic elements at all...?

  5. #135
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Why was "socialist" contained in NAZI? Are you saying they did not mean it? Like an "oopsie"?

    Do you believe that they had no socialistic elements at all...?
    Again, it depends on the definition of "socialism". The Nazi idea of "socialism" was completely different from that of people who call themselves "socialist" today, and anti-Marxism and anti-Bolshevism was even an inherent part of the Nazi definition of "socialism". Nazi socialism meant a militarized society organized by Führer-principle and a racially homogenous society. Other people called "socialists" don't share this definition of "socialism".

    Also, "socialism" had a modern sound to it at that time. The Nazis adopted it for PR reasons too.
    Last edited by German guy; 05-18-11 at 03:26 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Why was "socialist" contained in NAZI? Are you saying they did not mean it? Like an "oopsie"?

    Do you believe that they had no socialistic elements at all...?
    I suppose China is a republic for the people, and North Korea is actually democratic?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I suppose China is a republic for the people, and North Korea is actually democratic?
    Interesting, this. Same with you, German Guy.

    Those are worthy points to wonder.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Interesting, this. Same with you, German Guy.

    Those are worthy points to wonder.
    Never discount the power of PR, Wake.

    I don't think either country would like to label themselves as "The Republic of oppressing our own people" lol.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #139
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Only if you use a right-wing newspeak definition of "socialism" according to which absolutely everybody except libertarians are "socialist".

    Really, the differences between Nazis and socialists are so numerous it should be obvious that socialists and Nazis don't have more in common than, say, conservatives and socialists.
    They have more in common that you think, for instance similar mindset about economic issues. Even the jew issue is not too far away from many European socialists. Most people didn't support exterminiation of Jews, but they blamed jews on many of the problems in society. Socialists in Europe still do that, often in form of anti-zionism. http://www.yourish.com/2008/11/18/5634

    Roughly 1,000 pupils and left-wing activists who unlawfully occupied Humboldt University (HU) and some of whom destroyed an anti-Nazi exhibition on Wednesday were reacting to the university’s close ties to Israel, the university president has said.
    However, if you look at actual policies, then you will see that Nazi Germany didn't have socialism, because they had big private organizations. Actually their economic system is much closer to social democracy.
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-18-11 at 06:42 PM.

  10. #140
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    They have more in common that you think, for instance similar mindset about economic issues. Even the jew issue is not too far away from many European socialists. Most people didn't support exterminiation of Jews, but they blamed jews on many of the problems in society. Socialists in Europe still do that, often in form of anti-zionism. European anti-Semitism: Alive and kicking Jews | Yourish.com



    However, if you look at actual policies, then you will see that Nazi Germany didn't have socialism, because they had big private organizations. Actually their economic system is much closer to social democracy.
    You're right about one thing: Anti-Semitism does still exist and it's still a problem. I.e., a recent study in several European countries found that ca. 20% to 30% of the Germans agree to more or less anti-semitic statements in polls. You are also right that there are anti-Semites on the left too.

    But this anti-Semitism is in no way representative for "the left" or "socialists" in general. In fact, it's a no-go in Germany -- advancing anti-semitic statements is a total carreer killer for politicians. You can be sure that there is a consensus among the established parties and mainstream journalism to condemn such a thing.

    Also, not every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. Yet people critical of Israel are easily attacked with this anti-Semitism sledgehammer. That doesn't mean, of course, that there are no Israel critics who happen to be anti-Semites, those exist too, of course. There are more extreme Israel critics who are indeed influenced by traditional anti-Semite memes, without even consciously noticing that. But that's a mere fringe phenomenon.

    If I had to give a rough estimate, I'd say anti-Semitism among German leftists is not more prevalent than outright racism among American conservatives. And it's similarly coded and veiled. Obvious hardcore anti-Semitism without code and veils exists only on the far-right, as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by German guy; 05-18-11 at 07:22 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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