View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #121
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    To answer the original question, just for the record:

    I believe Stalinist or Maoist brands of "socialism" deserve the same condemnation as Nazism. Leninists probably too.

    "Socialism" in general does not. There are freedom-loving, democratic types of self-defined "socialists" too. Those socialists who embrace the constitutional order don't deserve condemnation, but respect as political competitors from conservatives, liberals or libertarians, and they deserve good counter-arguments instead of condemnation.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    To answer the original question, just for the record:

    I believe Stalinist or Maoist brands of "socialism" deserve the same condemnation as Nazism. Leninists probably too.

    "Socialism" in general does not. There are freedom-loving, democratic types of self-defined "socialists" too. Those socialists who embrace the constitutional order don't deserve condemnation, but respect as political competitors from conservatives, liberals or libertarians, and they deserve good counter-arguments instead of condemnation.
    Well said German guy.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    i know this gets the left going but the national socialist were still socialist just you had to be an Aryan for them to count you. If you read the Nazi platform and look at a host of laws they passed there is no doubt they were socialist

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by isthatajoke View Post
    i know this gets the left going but the national socialist were still socialist just you had to be an Aryan for them to count you. If you read the Nazi platform and look at a host of laws they passed there is no doubt they were socialist
    Did not Hitler once state he regretted deeming himself and his concept as "socialist"?
    Last edited by Wake; 05-18-11 at 12:50 PM.

  5. #125
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85
    Not according to the leading Marxists; Pannekoek, Korsch, Luxemburg, even Trotsky, before he changed his position. There's this myth that it was all about the circumstances, that there was no other way, etc. This is just nonsense. Lenin was against workers' democracy from the very beginning. He revereses himself for State & Revolution, but that's just pandering, then, he goes right back to his default position.
    I really love most of your posts but this is just trash. Lenin never held a single, unwavering position about party structure. Further, regarding proletarian dictatorship, he always upheld workers' democracy in general. And you're right, the situation in Russia, according to Lenin and every other major Bolshevik, required the party to step in and intervene as the situation was dire. You could argue that that wasn't the case, but I don't think you have a leg on which to stand when you claim that this was all some elaborate ruse by Lenin. That's an absolutely silly, conspiracist position disproven by many debates he had that we still have access to. Why don't you just accuse him of being a German agent now?

    Look to the trade union debate, for example, when he fought against Trotsky's position on the militarization of labour; or his changing position on party structure whereby he upheld the idea at one point that the Bolsheviks should be a mass party and that anyone that considered themselves Bolshevik would be a member; or when he argued for power to the Soviets, etc...

    Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the purity of his Marxism is irrelevent, as I am not a Marxist, I'm an Anarchist.
    Well that explains your delusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt
    Take a look at Lenin's political policies. Lenin promoted a mixed economy with both private business and public interventionism.
    NEP was a temporary policy...

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman
    If we were going to go with Marx's view, then it would happen naturally and Lenin/Stalin forcing the matter was the wrong thing to do.
    First off, Marx was very obviously a revolutionary, not an evolutionary, socialist:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marx
    — 16 —
    Will the peaceful abolition of private property be possible?


    It would be desirable if this could happen, and the communists would certainly be the last to oppose it. Communists know only too well that all conspiracies are not only useless, but even harmful. They know all too well that revolutions are not made intentionally and arbitrarily, but that, everywhere and always, they have been the necessary consequence of conditions which were wholly independent of the will and direction of individual parties and entire classes.

    But they also see that the development of the proletariat in nearly all civilized countries has been violently suppressed, and that in this way the opponents of communism have been working toward a revolution with all their strength. If the oppressed proletariat is finally driven to revolution, then we communists will defend the interests of the proletarians with deeds as we now defend them with words.

    Principles of Communism
    Second, the Russian people made the revolution happen, not Lenin, not Stalin. Not even the RSDLP or any other political party. Which is another issue that the conservatives (and yourself, apparently) fundamentally miss.

    Quote Originally Posted by German Guy
    I believe Stalinist or Maoist brands of "socialism" deserve the same condemnation as Nazism. Leninists probably too.
    What are the "Stalinist/Maoist" brands? What makes them different from the "Brezhnevite," "Khrushchevite," "Titoite," "Hoxhaite," "Il Sungite," and all other "brands" of "socialism"?
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Why blame the theory itself, when you can blame those who act on their belief in that theory? This way no matter how many millions die one can never blame communism. As for the consecutive massacres... well, they "just happen".

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    You're like American 2.0 you just pop in for irrelevant one-liners and think you've got this in the bag, only problem is nobody really understands what on earth you're going on about.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You're like American 2.0 you just pop in for irrelevant one-liners and think you've got this in the bag, only problem is nobody really understands what on earth you're going on about.
    Or perhaps you are not a deep-thinker. You are, unfortunately, shallow enough to deem the notions I entertain as"irrelevant". You then state blindly that you think I "have got this in the bag". What do you know of what I may believe? Furthermore, you insinuate that no one really understands me. Perhaps people are so anchored in their beliefs that they cannot possibly be incorrect? What do you know, and who are you to say what people think?

  9. #129
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    How many people has democracy killed? How about capitalism? Hell, what about feudalism? Adjusted for population booms, of course. I don't think "how many people died as a result of actions taken by regimes claiming the banner of X" is a good standard to determine the efficacy of a particular methodology. A better question would be "how many people would be saved by X?"

    And to directly address the OP, the reason that communism isn't universally reviled the way that nazism is has to do with the fact that one of the core tenants of communism isn't the complete extermination of entire groups of people. It's just about how you shuffle the money around.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  10. #130
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by isthatajoke View Post
    i know this gets the left going but the national socialist were still socialist just you had to be an Aryan for them to count you. If you read the Nazi platform and look at a host of laws they passed there is no doubt they were socialist
    Only if you use a right-wing newspeak definition of "socialism" according to which absolutely everybody except libertarians are "socialist".

    Really, the differences between Nazis and socialists are so numerous it should be obvious that socialists and Nazis don't have more in common than, say, conservatives and socialists.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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