View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #101
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Again; real Socialism is fundamentally democratic. This was the consensus among the Socialist thinkers, prior to the rise of the Soviet Union, who bitterly condemned the Bolsheviks on these grounds, and rightfully so. Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., are, at best, perversions of Socialism.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Again; real Socialism is fundamentally democratic. This was the consensus among the Socialist thinkers, prior to the rise of the Soviet Union, who bitterly condemned the Bolsheviks on these grounds, and rightfully so. Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., are, at best, perversions of Socialism.
    I don't think it's fair to lump Leninism in with Stalinism and Maoism. Leninism still sucked, but you can't blame the fact that it sucked on its being a perversion of true communism. Lenin's brand of communism was basically pure Marxism, and not nearly as bloody as that of Stalin or Mao.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    While both Communism and Nazism are horrible blights upon mankind, I actually do hold TRADITIONAL, ie "by the book" communism in a slightly higher regard since I think class warfare is actually more morally just than race warfare, although again they are both crap anyway I'm just talking about which turd smells slightly less like ****.

    However, if I was forced to choose between being a German Soldier or a Soviet Soldier during WW2 for example, I'd go with Germany. The corrupted communism of the USSR, China before the forms, North Korea, Cambodia, etc is far worse than Nazism or traditional "as described in the book" communism.

  4. #104
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I don't think it's fair to lump Leninism in with Stalinism and Maoism. Leninism still sucked, but you can't blame the fact that it sucked on its being a perversion of true communism. Lenin's brand of communism was basically pure Marxism, and not nearly as bloody as that of Stalin or Mao.
    Not according to the leading Marxists; Pannekoek, Korsch, Luxemburg, even Trotsky, before he changed his position. There's this myth that it was all about the circumstances, that there was no other way, etc. This is just nonsense. Lenin was against workers' democracy from the very beginning. He revereses himself for State & Revolution, but that's just pandering, then, he goes right back to his default position.

    Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the purity of his Marxism is irrelevent, as I am not a Marxist, I'm an Anarchist.
    Last edited by NGNM85; 05-18-11 at 01:10 AM.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I am not a Marxist, I'm an Anarchist.
    Communism wasn't idiotic enough for you?

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Communism wasn't idiotic enough for you?
    Don't worry, if he's a pure anarchist he'll never organize into anything worthwhile, which means he's about as irrelevant as the purity of Marxism.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    And again, you are taking something from the economic section of socialism and pretending it has to do with how the society is organized on a social policy level. I have shown in that very same paragraph that when the form of government is autocratic, it moves the definition to communism and I have shown that to distinct from socialism and that the two terms are often confused.

    Lastly, look at post 92, which you simply dismissed without giving a reason other than it didn't fit in your "view"
    Which social goals? Socialism is an economic model, it has very little to do with how the society is organized on a social policy level. You will find that different types of socialism cares about this.

    I already gave you the defnition of socialism, and it does not include anything about social policy.

    You are wrong about autocratic goverments not beeing socialists, but they are communists instead. It's the other way, an autocratic government can't be communist because in communism there is no government and also the society is supposed to be classless. Socialism doesn't have those requirements. Just look at the definition on wikipedia.

    I did give reasons in post 93 to your post 92. I skipped the parts that had no relevance, and went straight to your argument for why the system I am talking about, has workplace democracy. I responded to that in post 93. I stated that having voting power in national elections do not give you ultimate power over your workplace. This points is unanswered.

  8. #108
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    No, since Nazi Germany was fascist, not socialist or communist.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #109
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, since Nazi Germany was fascist, not socialist or communist.
    In Nazi Germany the means of production was owned by private organizations, not the government. The government benefited by having taxes and there was lots of regulations. Nazi Germany could be called market socialism, but that is borderline. It is probably much closer to social democracy without democracy.

    With your thinking however, Sovet was facist not socialist. BTW, Soviet was certinally not communist, because communism is a stateless society. Democracy is not a requirement for Socialism, if you want it to be then I suggest you change wikipedia. If you are right, they will let it stay.
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-18-11 at 03:22 AM.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    In Nazi Germany the means of production was owned by private organizations, not the government. The government benefited by having taxes and there was lots of regulations. Nazi Germany could be called market socialism, but that is borderline. It is probably much closer to social democracy without democracy.

    With your thinking however, Sovet was facist not socialist. BTW, Soviet was certinally not communist, because communism is a stateless society. Democracy is not a requirement for Socialism, if you want it to be then I suggest you change wikipedia. If you are right, they will let it stay.
    Someone already added it to wikipedia:

    "Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism; alternatively spelled Naziism[1]) was the ideology and practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] It was a unique variety of fascism that involved biological racism and antisemitism.[10] Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies; in practice, Nazism was a far right form of politics."
    Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Last edited by Catawba; 05-18-11 at 05:25 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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