View Poll Results: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

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    20 38.46%
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    30 57.69%
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Thread: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

  1. #91
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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok, so now I am a liar because I don't agree with you and have supported my arguments while you have not? Of course me showing support for my argument falsifies any claim you have that I lied.

    This is not a good debate technique.

    In the end, my argument is logically supported and yours is not, even what you linked to proves my case.

    So in the end, my point still stands.
    No, you are a liar because you said that I think there is only one type of socialism.

    You are a liar because you quoted TheDemSocialist last posts instead of posting the post you stated that you agree with. '

    You are a liar because you pretend like your point was "I was merely stating that government does not have to be involved." When in fact you said you agreed with this point. "Wrong. Socialism is where the workplace is democratically owned and controlled by the workers. Where the workplace is owned in a co-op fashion."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    No, you are a liar because you said that I think there is only one type of socialism.

    You are a liar because you quoted TheDemSocialist last posts instead of posting the post you stated that you agree with. '

    You are a liar because you pretend like your point was "I was merely stating that government does not have to be involved." When in fact you said you agreed with this point. "Wrong. Socialism is where the workplace is democratically owned and controlled by the workers. Where the workplace is owned in a co-op fashion."
    Lets review DemSocialist's post shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Wrong. Socialism is where the workplace is democratically owned and controlled by the workers. Where the workplace is owned in a co-op fashion.
    It has nothing to do with the "government regulating your life"
    The phrase "democratically owned and controlled by the workers" can have multiple definitions.

    We could have traditionally understood socialism, which is the point view that you are arguing from. (so yes, in that sense, you are saying there is only one form of socialism), however because the people own the government (by it being an extension of our will in a just society), if the government owns a business, we own that business as if it were a subsidiary.

    There is syndicalism, which is not government based

    There is industrial democracy

    Here you go, three definitions of socialism (there are more types too you can read about it here). Two of those three forms do not require government mediate ownership, however, it still falls within the definition that you posted and still supports Dem's post.

    So yes, you did not understand your own definition because you put attributes into it that it did not contain on its own, by making assumptions into what form of socialism we were talking about.

    Now we can continue to post logically like this, or we can throw our hands up and call people a liar.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 05-17-11 at 09:28 PM.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The phrase "democratically owned and controlled by the workers" can have multiple definitions.

    We could have traditionally understood socialism, which is the point view that you are arguing from. (so yes, in that sense, you are saying there is only one form of socialism)
    No, we can't. In the view I'm talking about there are two types. One democratic and one that is not.

    In the democratic one it is still possible that they don't own their own workplaces, but that the state owns it. In a state, every single worker owns a little part of the state and can influence the state. However, the workers at the workplace have no ownership over their own workplaces, they just own a little piece of the state. And the workplaces they work at are certainly not democratic because the government can force the workplace to something they wouldn't do democratically.

    In the undemocratic one, the workers can't say anything. This is also the most common one.
    Last edited by Camlon; 05-17-11 at 09:41 PM.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    No, we can't. In the view I'm talking about there are two types. One democratic and one that is not.

    In the democratic one it is still possible that they don't own their own workplaces, but that the state owns it. In a state, every single worker owns a little part of the state and can influence the state. However, the workers at the workplace have no ownership over their own workplaces, they just own a little piece of the state. And the workplaces they work at are certainly not democratic because the government can force the workplace to something they wouldn't do democratically.

    In the undemocratic one, the workers can't say anything. This is also the most common one.
    Then you should use a more accurate view, I have given you a link to the different types of socialism

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Then you should use a more accurate view, I have given you a link to the different types of socialism
    In fact your own link disagrees with you here.
    "This form of socialism combines public ownership and management of the means of production with centralized state planning, and can refer to a broad range of economic systems from the centralized Soviet-style command economy to participatory planning via workplace democracy."
    Hence, yes I can divide the type of socialism I talked about into subdivisions. Also, read this again

    from the centralized Soviet-style command economy to participatory planning via workplace democracy

    TheDemSocialist and you said that all types of socialism have workplace democracy.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    In fact your own link disagrees with you here.

    Hence, yes I can divide the type of socialism I talked about into subdivisions. Also, read this again

    from the centralized Soviet-style command economy to participatory planning via workplace democracy

    TheDemSocialist and you said that all types of socialism have workplace democracy.
    The section you are drawing that from is from the economic aspect of it, which I have already covered, it can be through local control or through the state or somewhere in between. (as your quote states)

    If you continue on with that paragraph, you get this quote

    This type of economic system was often combined with a single-party political system, and is thus associated with the Communist states of the 20th century.
    communism != socialism.

    Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and it is often mistakenly, in general political discourse, used interchangeably with socialism;

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The section you are drawing that from is from the economic aspect of it, which I have already covered, it can be through local control or through the state or somewhere in between. (as your quote states)
    You did "cover" it, but I imediatly refuted your point. To be able to vote in natilnal elections (which in many cases you are not) is not enough to have workplace democracy. Workplace democracy is when workers of the company can decide the company's future.


    If you continue on with that paragraph, you get this quote

    This type of economic system was often combined with a single-party political system, and is thus associated with the Communist states of the 20th century.

    communism != socialism.
    All "communist" states have been socialist states if you follow the proper definition. In fact a communist state has never existed because you can not have a government and a communist state. Communism is a stateless society.

    And I think your argument is pretty weak as they clearly say this is a form of socialism.
    "This form of socialism combines public ownership and management of the means of production with centralized state planning, and can refer to a broad range of economic systems from the centralized Soviet-style command economy to participatory planning via workplace democracy."

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Is not a concept good in theory, yet consecutively failed in application... not a good theory? Millions of deaths could be considered a failure.
    Last edited by Wake; 05-17-11 at 10:49 PM.

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    You did "cover" it, but I imediatly refuted your point. To be able to vote in natilnal elections (which in many cases you are not) is not enough to have workplace democracy. Workplace democracy is when workers of the company can decide the company's future.

    All "communist" states have been socialist states if you follow the proper definition. In fact a communist state has never existed because you can not have a government and a communist state. Communism is a stateless society.

    And I think your argument is pretty weak as they clearly say this is a form of socialism.
    "This form of socialism combines public ownership and management of the means of production with centralized state planning, and can refer to a broad range of economic systems from the centralized Soviet-style command economy to participatory planning via workplace democracy."
    And again, you are taking something from the economic section of socialism and pretending it has to do with how the society is organized on a social policy level. I have shown in that very same paragraph that when the form of government is autocratic, it moves the definition to communism and I have shown that to distinct from socialism and that the two terms are often confused.

    Lastly, look at post 92, which you simply dismissed without giving a reason other than it didn't fit in your "view"

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    Re: Should Socialism - Communism be condemned like Nazim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Is not a concept good in theory, yet consecutively failed in application... not a good theory? Millions of deaths could be considered a failure.
    This is correct, communism is not a desirable government and it has been shown not to work, however words do have meaning. We should not simply redefine willy nilly.

    In terms of socialism, we have examples where it worked well (canada) and examples where it did not work well (venezuela)

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