View Poll Results: Is socialism inevitable within the next 100 years?

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Thread: Is socialism inevitable?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    As world population grows and machines already do most of the hard work, so we don't have to enslave each other or work our butt off on the field plowing and reaping, I come to ask more frequently what the future structure of society would be. Overproduction has become a major issue both in terms of consuming natural resources and stalled market.
    Freedom lovers state that "one have the right to ones labor and the products of that labor" in contrast with slavery where they belong to the master. Does that work in over-productive economy or it just applies for the self sufficient 19 century farmer type of man? Are we moving towards some kind of plan economy, some kind of socialism, as labor becomes more and more effective and manual-free?
    Is socialism inevitable within the next 100 years?
    I think this century has shown that people have an appetite for more and more stuff. Even if we get past the basics, people will want newer and better cars, ipods, fashion, etc. As a race, we like our shiny things.

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    What happens if wealth becomes meaningless...that would be interesting
    If wealth becomes meaningless, we will invent new definitions of wealth and pretend they matter. We do that already.

    Exhibit A : http://www.pandora.net/
    Last edited by tacomancer; 05-13-11 at 09:00 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Then you should provide what definition of socialism you're wanting to use. Are you using some newspeak definition?
    You are totally right. Without a proper definition of "socialism" everything else is meaningless. That's a hard task, however, almost impossible. "Socialism" is probably one of the most speculative and abused words out there. Even USSR and Hitler had used it in their way too.
    Hm, there is a guy in this forum and perhaps his signature gives the idea of what I mean:

    "I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate the grave evils of capitalism, namely through the esablishment of a socialist economy. A planned economy, adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute work to be done among all those able to work and would gurantee a livelihood to every person." - Albert Einstein
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Perhaps you mean some sort of de facto oligarchy instead of socialism?
    Yeah, how could the average person deal with: "we don't need you, we have installed robots. Take care." ? Obviously, one cannot make one's car in the garage but whoever does will have it all. So yes it becomes some form of oligarchy with only several manufacturers.

    Along the way: Socialism vs State Socialism
    Last edited by Canell; 05-13-11 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think this century has shown that people have an appetite for more and more stuff. Even if we get past the basics, people will want newer and better cars, ipods, fashion, etc. As a race, we like our shiny things.
    Yes but that puts a great presure on the Earth to satisfy our endless desires and mistakes. Meaning, it's not sustainable.

  4. #14
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    As world population grows and machines already do most of the hard work, so we don't have to enslave each other or work our butt off on the field plowing and reaping, I come to ask more frequently what the future structure of society would be. Overproduction has become a major issue both in terms of consuming natural resources and stalled market.
    Freedom lovers state that "one have the right to ones labor and the products of that labor" in contrast with slavery where they belong to the master. Does that work in over-productive economy or it just applies for the self sufficient 19 century farmer type of man? Are we moving towards some kind of plan economy, some kind of socialism, as labor becomes more and more effective and manual-free?
    Is socialism inevitable within the next 100 years?
    Ok, what would happened in a much more automated economy where a few people produce a lot of stuff. What will happen is that the service economy becomes more important. For instance when people spend less and less of their money on manufactured goods, then they will start spend more money on things like housing, education, therapy, etc.

    This may increase income inequality somewhat, but this is not a major factor. There are many countries with a low manufacturing percentage with quite low income inequality.

    The major factor is the decline in economic output in western countries. Many developed countries have hardly grown the last 20 years, especially the productivity in the governmental sector has been very low. However, governmental services are sticky downwards and people expect too much. When the economic output fall, then governmental sector just keeps expanding. The governmental workers in the US are still getting higher wage raises than the private sector even though it should have been the opposite way.

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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Ok, what would happened in a much more automated economy where a few people produce a lot of stuff. What will happen is that the service economy becomes more important. For instance when people spend less and less of their money on manufactured goods, then they will start spend more money on things like housing, education, therapy, etc.
    OK, lets imagine we can produce almost everything with robots and the service sector is 90% of the economy. Would it be more capitalist or more socialist? And wouldn't there be a virtual monopoly on material goods as fewer and fewer manufacturers run the show?

  6. #16
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.

    From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
    Some think this was writen by Alexander Tytler but others dispute him being the originator.

    I don't know who originally wrote it, but IMO, it is where most of the so called advanced countries are heading.

    .

  7. #17
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    I don't think that it's inevitable. Economies all around the world have drifted away from socialism toward market capitalism, just look at China. Even this country has far less public control of the means of production than it did 40 years ago. Telecommunications, airlines, banking, and transportation are all considerably less regulated, and government spending as a percentage of GDP, while jumping in recent years, is lower than it was back then. There is no inevitable march toward socialism.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  8. #18
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    As world population grows and machines already do most of the hard work, so we don't have to enslave each other or work our butt off on the field plowing and reaping, I come to ask more frequently what the future structure of society would be. Overproduction has become a major issue both in terms of consuming natural resources and stalled market.
    Freedom lovers state that "one have the right to ones labor and the products of that labor" in contrast with slavery where they belong to the master. Does that work in over-productive economy or it just applies for the self sufficient 19 century farmer type of man? Are we moving towards some kind of plan economy, some kind of socialism, as labor becomes more and more effective and manual-free?
    Is socialism inevitable within the next 100 years?
    I'm a believer that as technology develops, reduces scarcity of materials, socialism or communism is more realistic.
    Before then however, I do not believe that it is a valid economic system.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #19
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    I talking mainly about the Western world.



    Well, nothing fancy here, just overproduction.
    OK, for example imagine you are a bread maker making a decent living. But a big bakery plant opens in your town and suddenly part of your customers are attracted there for low prices or whatever it could be. Now, your sales drop dramatically and its not a decent living anymore. Probably the same will happen with lots of bakeries around.
    My point is that rising efficiency, automation and new technologies leads to overproduction where decreasing number of people produce ever increasing number of goods and many people become just unneeded. Certainly, new industries can be introduces to employ them but I think there will be a point of saturation.



    I never said anything about nationalization. But if more and more financial power is concentrated in the hands of the big folks what would the regular Joe do except playing their game?
    Just read a story by David Brin, "Piecework" where he examines the long term consequences of ever more technological solutions to the worlds problems eventually resulting in a shortage of useful work.

    In the story, people dream of someday joining those who actually DO something.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  10. #20
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    Re: Is socialism inevitable?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think this century has shown that people have an appetite for more and more stuff. Even if we get past the basics, people will want newer and better cars, ipods, fashion, etc. As a race, we like our shiny things.



    If wealth becomes meaningless, we will invent new definitions of wealth and pretend they matter. We do that already.

    Exhibit A : Genuine jewelry | PANDORA
    There is a saturation point to wealth.
    You can see this exhibited by the wealthy who start to resent their wealth.

    When wealth is defined by how creative a person is with things like art, science, etc, we are definitely moving forward.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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