Should Military Chaplains Be Allowed to Perform Same Sex Marriages?

digsbe said:

From what I understand though, it's no longer illegal to be a homosexual and in the military. The federal government doesn't authorize marriage licenses. If the two soldiers are from a state that will recognize their union I have no problem with a chaplain preforming the ceremony and seeing that it gets authorized in that state. If it's not legal in their home state I don't have a problem with a chaplain by his/her own will preforming a ceremony.

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Well, actually the repeal hasn't been fully enacted yet, and two, there is still no provision for Same Sex Marriage in the military. SSM will still not be recognized in the military regardless of DADT.

roguenuke said:

I'm in the Navy reserves and my husband is active duty Navy. I never said the military will recognize SSMs until after DOMA is repealed. However, that does not in any way legally prevent a Navy chaplain from performing a SSM on base and the Navy has said that they can perform same sex marriages on base.

Navy would allow gay weddings on base - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

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Navy Times is not the definitive source on policy and according to DC area policy, no SSM will be performed....I'm pretty sure that's Navy wide...for now at least. Just got that clarified 15 minutes ago with a few phone calls.

Aunt Spiker said:

Chaplains are exempt.
Not just musing that they are - I know they are.

They are the only group in the military who are exempt from 'equal treatment' or whatever you might want to say.

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Equal treatment? They still have regulations...the only exemption for Chaplains is that they can not be ordered into combat or to do anything in direct violation of their religious beleifs. They are still military officers.

Centrehalf said:

TOJ, I have to log off now. I'll be back tomorrow morning, and rest assured that I do indeed have 18 more links ready to go. So, if you really do want to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a human being can actually operate a keyboard while having **** for brains then keep it up. I'll smack you down again tomorrow.

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If this is your best at smacking someone down, you are really lame. So far all you have done is FAIL. :lamo

Your first link was merely a description of the Wicca religion and stated that the USA military recognized Wicca as a valid religion. Your second link concerns a paper by someone writing for the Family Research Council.

ReligiousTolerance.ORG said:

The conclusion of the paper is that the "Pentagon should withdraw recognition of Wicca for readiness reasons."

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Both of these links are from Ontario based Religious Tolerance.Org. Neither link provided anything that remotely backed up your claim.

You claimed there were Wiccan Chaplains when you was in the military 20 years ago but have offered no proof to back it up. The USA military saying that they recognize the Wicca religion matters not. Are you going to offer proof. Didn't think so.

You are not real good at this are you?

Does anyone have a reliable source that proves there are any Wiccan Chaplains in the USA military even now? There may be but, to date, I've seen no evidence.

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Hatuey said:

Larsen was in the process of changing chaplaincies. When they called his Christian endorser in order to change chaplaincies(which would have made Wicca a recognized group) the church that endorsed him quickly revoked his endorsement. In essence, the military didn't strip him of his chaplaincy because it wanted to. It had to because of regulation regarding the endorsement of chaplains and bureaucratic red tape. It wasnt a religious matter. It was bureaucratic. In essence, this shows that being a chaplain is kind of like a constant BA. You can change your major whenever you want as long as the institution allows it. You're not bound to any major. Just whatever bureaucratic red tape there is.

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Thats the fig leaf they used.

Seattle Times said:

Chaplain Kevin McGhee, Larsen's superior at Camp Anaconda, believes a "grave injustice" was done. McGhee, a Methodist, supervised 26 chaplains on the giant base near Balad, 50 miles north of Baghdad. He says Larsen was the best.

"What happened to Chaplain Larsen — to be honest, I think it's political," McGhee says. "A lot of people think Wiccans are un-American, because they are ignorant about what Wiccans do."

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Do you know of any reliable source that shows there are Wiccan Chaplain even now?

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TOJ said:

Thats the fig leaf they used.

Do you know of any reliable source that shows there are Wiccan Chaplain even now?

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Did you read the entire article? Obviously not.

When the Sacred Well Congregation applied July 31 to become Larsen's new endorser, the Army initially cited a minor bureaucratic obstacle: It could not find a copy of his previous endorsement from the Chaplaincy of Full Gospel Churches, a Dallas-based association of Pentecostal churches.

The following day, a senior Army chaplain telephoned the Chaplaincy to ask for the form.

Within hours, the Pentecostal group sent Larsen an urgent e-mail saying it had received a "strange call" from the Army Chief of Chaplains office. The caller "mentioned that a Donald M. Larsen ... was requesting a change-over ... to Wiccans," the e-mail said. "Please communicate with this office, as we do not believe it is you."

In his reply, Larsen pleaded that the Chaplaincy not cancel his endorsement until he could complete the switch, but the Chaplaincy immediately severed its ties to Larsen. The Sacred Well Congregation could not renew his papers because it was not yet an official endorser. Larsen was ordered to cease functioning immediately as a chaplain and pulled from Iraq.

Lt. Col. Randall Dolinger, the Army Chief of Chaplains spokesman, denied any discrimination: "What you're really dealing with is more of a personal drama, what one person has been through and the choices he's made. Plus, the fact that the military does have Catch-22s."

Brig. Gen. Cecil Richardson, the Air Force's deputy chief of chaplains, says there are simply too few Wiccans in the military to justify a full-time chaplain.

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Try a little honesty or maybe just reading the entire article? One person's opinions does not do away with the facts.

mac said:

Equal treatment? They still have regulations...the only exemption for Chaplains is that they can not be ordered into combat or to do anything in direct violation of their religious beleifs. They are still military officers.

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Yes - they are military officers *with exemptions* in regard to some regulations.

Just like my husband's a SFC but he functions with *certain exemptions* from the average SFC because of his specialty at present.

Redress said:

Thread that brought this on: http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/98727-navy-perform-same-sex-marriages.html

Note that I use the term "allowed", not "forced". No chaplain would be forced to perform such a service, but allowed if they chose to.

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Most ordained religious ministers are able to preside over same sex marriage ceremonies even though they are not legally binding. So even though a same sex couple may not legally be able to marry, some go through the ceremony because they consider themselves married.

So yes, I think military chaplains should be allowed to preside over same sex marriages, despite the legality of same sex marriages.

Aunt Spiker said:

Yes - they are military officers *with exemptions* in regard to some regulations.

Just like my husband's a SFC but he functions with *certain exemptions* from the average SFC because of his specialty at present.

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Well, other than what I've noted already, there are no such "exemptions" for Navy Chaplains. They gotta follow orders just like the rest of us.

mac said:

Well, other than what I've noted already, there are no such "exemptions" for Navy Chaplains. They gotta follow orders just like the rest of us.

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Them being in the military in itself is an exemptive policy.

Them being allowed to choose whether or not they marry gays is another exemptive policy. . . it is *policy* - they've given siminars, training sessions and handouts that mark *exactly that*

There is no debate to be had over this - the military has already decided . . . finito.

Aunt Spiker said:

Them being in the military in itself is an exemptive policy.

Them being allowed to choose whether or not they marry gays is another exemptive policy. . . it is *policy* - they've given siminars, training sessions and handouts that mark *exactly that*

There is no debate to be had over this - the military has already decided . . . finito.

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Possibly....it's not being advertised internally though. Links?

Hatuey said:

Did you read the entire article? Obviously not.

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If he had been converting to any of the major religions, they would have worked through the issue instead of discharging him.

Try a little honesty or maybe just reading the entire article? One person's opinions does not do away with the facts.

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Wow, you telling someone else to try being honest. That's rich.

So do you know of any Wiccan Chaplains, previously or current? It certainly appears that the fact is there is still no Wiccan Chaplains in the USA military.

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Yes, they should be allowed to do so if they so choose.

TOJ said:

If he had been converting to any of the major religions, they would have worked through the issue instead of discharging him.

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Your ignorance on this issue is starting to show. The military doesn't recognize major religions. It recognizes groups. That's why there are 100+ recognized religious groups within the military and not "Islam" or "Judaism". With that said, I'll show you why you're wrong. The military has already recognized Wiccan groups before:

An Army Controversy: Should the Witches Be Welcome?

Two summers ago, the Army approved the Fort Hood Open Circle as its first official wiccan group. Without much fanfare, Fort Hood officials gave them a grassy campsite for their sacred ground, sanctioned their choice of high priestess -- even lent them an Army chaplain for moral support. Twice a week, the wiccans hold evening classes on subjects such as lunar cycles and the meaning of a coven. On full moons and eight sacred holidays, they and dozens of more witches from the surrounding area watch the high priestess lift her dagger over a ball of salt and honor the blessed earth. The events are posted on base and open to anyone interested. Except for a handful of letters from irate fundamentalist Christians in nearby Killeen, the rituals attracted little notice until recently.

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What's even more damaging your ridiculous assertion on Wicca is that his discharge is related to him trying to become a Wiccan chaplain, if that were even remotely how would this be possible:

US ARMY CHAPLAIN'S HANDBOOK: EXCERPT ON WICCA

The excerpt US Army prepared a book for the guidance of its chaplains when dealing with a soldier of a non-traditional faith. The book is: "Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains," and was first published in 1978. The 1990 edition appears to have gone out of print. However a new version was published in 2001 under the same name. The the U.S. Department of the Army is listed as as editor 1

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The military offers training to chaplains wishing to advise Wiccans. Why does it do that if it does not recognize a "non-major religion"? What's even more disturbing is that you're so ignorant of military regulation concerning religion that you think that conversion to any religion is grounds for a discharge.

Wow, you telling someone else to try being honest. That's rich.

So do you know of any Wiccan Chaplains, previously or current? It certainly appears that the fact is there is still no Wiccan Chaplains in the USA military.

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I'm telling you to be honest because you provided a clearly edited account of what actually happened. I'm telling you to inform yourself because you have zero idea on what the military regulations are for chaplains. I'm telling you stop trolling around when there are people on this forum who are clearly more intelligent than you are and a lot better at doing basic research. But since you're still bitching about not having a "Wiccan Chaplain" that's explained by the fact that you have to be accredited by a USNAVY recognized program that teaches the laws, guidelines etc of whatever religion you're trying to become a chaplain in. Again, it's a matter of bureaucracy and red tape not discrimination. If it were, why would the military advice chaplains on Wicca at all?

mac said:

Navy Times is not the definitive source on policy and according to DC area policy, no SSM will be performed....I'm pretty sure that's Navy wide...for now at least. Just got that clarified 15 minutes ago with a few phone calls.

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It says right in the article that this was a memo that updated chaplain policy and what I quoted was from a Navy spokesperson.

And of course they can't be performed right now, since officially, DADT is still an active policy until around August, once all the training is done. At this current point in time, military personnel can still be discharged for being found out as gay. However, after DADT is officially repealed, then there is absolutely no reason why a Navy chaplain could not perform a same sex marriage on base, since same sex marriage, by itself, is in no way illegal, it is simply not legally recognized by the US government, yet. Once homosexuals can officially serve without fear of discharge, then it won't matter if they get married (even if it wouldn't be officially recognized by the federal government).

mac said:

Possibly....it's not being advertised internally though. Links?

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Training all personnel is probably a slow-going process. My husband attended several seminars concerning this - his biggest gripe wasn't the new rules, but the fact that some people don't get that they are no longer allowed to discriminate. I heard a lot about it last week from him.

It's been a big deal - eventually everyone would have gone through this same pace, it'll just take time: different branches, different folks, different strokes.

Aunt Spiker said:

Training all personnel is probably a slow-going process. My husband attended several seminars concerning this - his biggest gripe wasn't the new rules, but the fact that some people don't get that they are no longer allowed to discriminate. I heard a lot about it last week from him.

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Same here, all branchs are going through it. Once that's done, the repeal will be enacted. I agree the rules are allready in place and apply just as equally to homosexuals as anyone else.

It's been a big deal - eventually everyone would have gone through this same pace, it'll just take time: different branches, different folks, different strokes.

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This still doesn't say anything of Chaplains performing SSMs on base. Nothing has been mentioned in the training that both your husband and I received other than that SSM still will not be recognized.

roguenuke said:

It says right in the article that this was a memo that updated chaplain policy and what I quoted was from a Navy spokesperson.

And of course they can't be performed right now, since officially, DADT is still an active policy until around August, once all the training is done. At this current point in time, military personnel can still be discharged for being found out as gay. However, after DADT is officially repealed, then there is absolutely no reason why a Navy chaplain could not perform a same sex marriage on base, since same sex marriage, by itself, is in no way illegal, it is simply not legally recognized by the US government, yet. Once homosexuals can officially serve without fear of discharge, then it won't matter if they get married (even if it wouldn't be officially recognized by the federal government).

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Well, not that I ever like to use the Navy Times to show policy to sailors...this is how you want to get it so here it is:

Navy halts move to allow gay weddings on base - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

What I've learned in my very long time in the Navy is that it isn't legal until it's in writing and signed by competant authority.

Hatuey said:

Your ignorance on this issue is starting to show. The military doesn't recognize major religions. It recognizes groups. That's why there are 100+ recognized religious groups within the military and not "Islam" or "Judaism". With that said, I'll show you why you're wrong. The military has already recognized Wiccan groups before:

An Army Controversy: Should the Witches Be Welcome?



What's even more damaging your ridiculous assertion on Wicca is that his discharge is related to him trying to become a Wiccan chaplain, if that were even remotely how would this be possible:

US ARMY CHAPLAIN'S HANDBOOK: EXCERPT ON WICCA



The military offers training to chaplains wishing to advise Wiccans. Why does it do that if it does not recognize a "non-major religion"? What's even more disturbing is that you're so ignorant of military regulation concerning religion that you think that conversion to any religion is grounds for a discharge.



I'm telling you to be honest because you provided a clearly edited account of what actually happened. I'm telling you to inform yourself because you have zero idea on what the military regulations are for chaplains. I'm telling you stop trolling around when there are people on this forum who are clearly more intelligent than you are and a lot better at doing basic research. But since you're still bitching about not having a "Wiccan Chaplain" that's explained by the fact that you have to be accredited by a USNAVY recognized program that teaches the laws, guidelines etc of whatever religion you're trying to become a chaplain in. Again, it's a matter of bureaucracy and red tape not discrimination. If it were, why would the military advice chaplains on Wicca at all?

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You are ignoring my point. What the USA military instructs their chaplains concerning treating off-beat religions is irrelevant. The fact is, far as I can tell and no one has offered evidence to the contrary, there are no Wiccan chaplains in the USA military. You say it is due to bureaucracy and red tape. I say that is BS.

I would think you would know that bureaucracy and red tape are often used as a means of discriminating. If you don't believe that, have a black person try getting a zoning variance in a small southern USA city that is routinely given to white applicants.

This started out with me asking why the USA military had chaplains as that would seem to violate the first amendment and several stated that it was OK since all religions are treated equally. I think that is absurd and the absence of a Wiccan chaplain would seem to prove it false.

BTW, I don't give two-hoots-in-hell what you think about my intellgence and research abilities.

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mac said:

Well, not that I ever like to use the Navy Times to show policy to sailors...this is how you want to get it so here it is:

Navy halts move to allow gay weddings on base - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

What I've learned in my very long time in the Navy is that it isn't legal until it's in writing and signed by competant authority.

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Thank you for the updated info then.

I say they are wrong for doing this because officiating over a private ceremony in no way reflects that the US government is going to recognize the union. It just simply says that gay personnel are being treated equally in the service, as far as being able to have a military wedding goes.

Now, I do believe that this is another path of getting DOMA repealed, since gay servicemembers will be able to get married without being discharged from the service after DADT is officially repealed and then their spouses will be able to show that they are being discriminated against because of DOMA by not being allowed the same benefits as opposite sex spouses get.

roguenuke said:

Thank you for the updated info then.

I say they are wrong for doing this because officiating over a private ceremony in no way reflects that the US government is going to recognize the union. It just simply says that gay personnel are being treated equally in the service, as far as being able to have a military wedding goes.

Now, I do believe that this is another path of getting DOMA repealed, since gay servicemembers will be able to get married without being discharged from the service after DADT is officially repealed and then their spouses will be able to show that they are being discriminated against because of DOMA by not being allowed the same benefits as opposite sex spouses get.

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again...chaplains are military officers which makes them federal officers.

mac said:

again...chaplains are military officers which makes them federal officers.

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But they can still be authorized by the state that they are in to perform a legal marriage for that state. Not to mention, they wouldn't have to be signing the certificate to bless the ceremony. I had my wedding officiated over by a Navy wife, so I don't see why someone else couldn't be the official officiate for the state and the chaplain simply perform the ceremony or most of the ceremony, and the other person sign the license.

TOJ said:

You are ignoring my point. What the USA military instructs their chaplains concerning treating off-beat religions is irrelevant.

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Of course it seems irrelevant to you cause you're ignorant. If the military gives a Wiccan group a chaplain, what does that make him? I'll wait for you to do the math.

Hatuey said:

Of course it seems irrelevant to you cause you're ignorant. If the military gives a Wiccan group a chaplain, what does that make him? I'll wait for you to do the math.

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I assume he or she would be a military chaplain that happened to be a Wiccan. Something they currently do not have, as far as I can tell.

What he would be in your twisted little brain is anyone's guess. :roll:

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roguenuke said:

But they can still be authorized by the state that they are in to perform a legal marriage for that state. Not to mention, they wouldn't have to be signing the certificate to bless the ceremony. I had my wedding officiated over by a Navy wife, so I don't see why someone else couldn't be the official officiate for the state and the chaplain simply perform the ceremony or most of the ceremony, and the other person sign the license.

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No they can't. They are federal employees. There are all kind of rules that govern the behavior of the military, many of which restrict them beyond local law. I think you know that, this is no different. Further, what is "technically legal" rarely cuts it when speaking of the behavior of military members.