View Poll Results: Should have Pakistan's sovereign been a lesser concern for the US?

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  • Yes, in this respect the violation was justified

    23 85.19%
  • No, Obama should have informed the ISI or obtained permission first

    2 7.41%
  • Other

    2 7.41%
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Thread: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

  1. #11
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The Pakistani's are very unhappy that the American's flew into their airspace, landed on their turf and shot up a building for 40 minutes (and then left behind a downed helicopter and a blazing mansion).
    The Americans are very unhappy that the Pakistanis let bin Laden build a fortress outside of Islamabad, surrounded by official Pakistani military installations, and allowed him free reign in their country for five freaking years while swearing to Allah that he was never inside of their borders.

    There is no doubt much criticism will be made against America in the way of Pakistan, and the anti-American axis will probably just try and use it as an example of America's "imperialism" and "disregard for national sovereign".
    The anti-American axis would point to an American with a loud shirt and a tourist visa as an example of America's "imperialism" and "disregard for national sovereignty"... so frankly nothing we do or don't do would change their views. Besides, we've done a lot of disregarding national sovereignty with Afghanistan and Iraq. Pakistan isn't special.

    The question here is however, was Obama right in deeming a clear violation of Pakistani sovereign and international law as a lesser concern considering the importance and scope of the mission at hand?
    Yep, just as any nation would have been justified in orchestrating a snatch-and-grab mission for Slobodan Milošević or any other globally wanted terrorist. Countries that harbor terrorist leaders and war criminals have been put on alert.

  2. #12
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    We violated their sovereignty yes, but they had it comin.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  3. #13
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    This definitely falls under the old adage:
    i have to disagree; i see no need to apologize. Musharraf released a statement claiming that it was an inexcusable violation of pakistani soveriegnty etc. for us to pull off the raid. well musharraf, you know what else is inexcusable? THE ISI PROTECTING OSAMA F'ING BIN LADEN.

  4. #14
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    One could argue that Osama just wasn't worth the violation into Pakistan and the political risk associated with doing that because of his marginalization in Al Qaeda and subsequent irrelevance after 9/11, and that the air strikes are targeting real and current threats. What do you think?
    Well history shows he was a huge threat, and there's the possibility he could be again, so I guess it all goes back to precedent again.
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i have to disagree; i see no need to apologize. Musharraf released a statement claiming that it was an inexcusable violation of pakistani soveriegnty etc. for us to pull off the raid. well musharraf, you know what else is inexcusable? THE ISI PROTECTING OSAMA F'ING BIN LADEN.
    Damn right will. If you can't straighten up your own house, we'll come in and do it for you.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #16
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The Pakistani's are very unhappy that the American's flew into their airspace, landed on their turf and shot up a building for 40 minutes (and then left behind a downed helicopter and a blazing mansion).

    There is no doubt much criticism will be made against America in the way of Pakistan, and the anti-American axis will probably just try and use it as an example of America's "imperialism" and "disregard for national sovereign".

    The question here is however, was Obama right in deeming a clear violation of Pakistani sovereign and international law as a lesser concern considering the importance and scope of the mission at hand?
    It was absolutely worth it. Pakistan has been unreliable ally at best, a treacherous one at worst. Their soveriegnty was clearly a secondary concern to bringing America's worst mass murderer to justice, especially considering Pakistan has no real ability to retaliate. They need us far more than we need them.

    There may be some fallout and criticism over our violation of their soveriegnty, but a message was sent. If you want your soveriegnty respected, don't harbor terrorists. Another message was sent by Osama's death, no one can escape American justice. If you attack us, we will find you. Even if it takes ten years, we will track you down, find you, and kill you. I'm not a Obama fan at all, but he absolutely made the right call to go in and get bin Laden. I applaud him for making the right call on a tough decision.
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  7. #17
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    It was necessary, but it was poorly handled.

  8. #18
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    It was necessary, but it was poorly handled.
    how do you think it should have been handled?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #19
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    America has been running airstrikes into Pakistan territory with candid approval for quite a while, I think this was justified.
    That Pakistan did not know that a wanted mass murderer was openly(more or less) residing in a "mansion" in the suburbs of their major city is very hard to believe.
    That they support(to an extent) terrorism and killing against us is more pausible.
    Just what the hell did they expect ?
    Pakistan - grow up !

  10. #20
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    Re: Was Pakistan's sovereign a lesser concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    It was necessary, but it was poorly handled.
    I would have handled it differently, BUT NOT NECESSARILY BETTER !
    And "better" is what counts" !

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