View Poll Results: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

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Thread: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

  1. #81
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I think it depends on the situation and how dire the information is.
    Celticwar, this is how I feel about it

    From a post from another thread

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In my military history class a few years ago, my professor invited a CIA case officer (also a former Marine and former student of the same class) to give a guest lecture to the class. He said it was NEVER okay to torture, and that the "ticking time-bomb scenario" (which is a one-in-a million chance contrived scenario in the first place) and for which many envision torture to be useful could be avoided if one had done their homework the right way up until that point.

    To me, torture represents doing things the convenient and easy way, rather than doing things the right way. It is un-American and goes against our values. The ticking time-bomb scenario is the ONLY scenario for which I would even consider saying that torture is justified. And who's to say that the same intelligence couldn't have been obtained without torture, with a little more time and patience?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    We have to prevent the government turning into another Taliban supporter, the only way to make it so the people arnt turned and manipulated is to establish a government ourselves. The only government we are going to establish, because of our values, is a democratic one, because it is the most moral, fair, just, modern system there is. We as americans cant trust any other type of government being established, its a very delicate situation over there, tis why we are there in the first place.
    Celticwar, I think your evaluation of the situation is a bit simplistic.

    1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
    2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Celticwar, I think your evaluation of the situation is a bit simplistic.

    1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
    2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.
    I was more trying to be somewhat devils advicate, because idk fully what i think.

    I feel like America is cornered in this decision. How can we establish anything other then a democratic society?

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I was more trying to be somewhat devils advicate, because idk fully what i think.

    I feel like America is cornered in this decision. How can we establish anything other then a democratic society?
    I agree. That's why this isn't a black and white issue, it's really tough for Obama to decide how he wants to approach Afghanistan.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Here is the Reagan quote-

    From President Ronald Reaganís signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:



    And I am not saying that torture is an American value, I am simply saying that the US has employed necessary measures in the past to win wars. Now, as to the Japanese waterboarding, of course we complained they were doing it to our soldiers. Ultimately I do not think torture works in getting totally credible info, most agree that it does not. But if employing any of these "border-line" torture techniques saves an American life, then I am all for it.
    To your last point it is hard to disagree, but it seems that this is a big 'IF'.

    Thanks for the Reagan Quote!
    "Action expresses priorities."
    ~Mohandas Gandhi

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'd argue that there are just as effective ways to get the same information to save lives, without having to resort to physical torture or compromising our values.
    Agreed. As I said in my previous post, that's a big "IF".
    "Action expresses priorities."
    ~Mohandas Gandhi

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    We have to prevent the government turning into another Taliban supporter, the only way to make it so the people arnt turned and manipulated is to establish a government ourselves. The only government we are going to establish, because of our values, is a democratic one, because it is the most moral, fair, just, modern system there is. We as americans cant trust any other type of government being established, its a very delicate situation over there, tis why we are there in the first place.
    I guess I would challenge the assertion that we have to prevent the governement from turning back to the Taliban. I see Afganistan as a man holding a small dog tightly because he was biting you. You have your hand over his snout, preventing him from biting, and you are holding the little guy as tight as you can, trying to calm him down. But you know the moment you decide to let him go he is going to bite or scratch you, and maybe even draw blood. So, are you going to hold the dog forever? Will you let him go and deal with the scratch or bite later? You have to let him go, no matter how calm you think he has gotten.

    But now the dog knows that if he tries to bite you again, you can restrain his butt at will.
    "Action expresses priorities."
    ~Mohandas Gandhi

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Celticwar, I think your evaluation of the situation is a bit simplistic.

    1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
    2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.
    That is correct, sir!
    "Action expresses priorities."
    ~Mohandas Gandhi

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Our war with Islam demands tough measures. There's no other way.
    NOTICE: I am not a troll, because what I write I believe, and I have no intention of derailing threads or manipulating human nature. I am not a terrorist, because I do not endorse the killing of innocent people, and I am not here to promote violence. I AM HERE ONLY TO EXPRESS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND ENJOY LIVELY DISCUSSION.

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha View Post
    ......and the vital information that led to the dispatching of Osama......came straight out of Gitmo.

    Good thing it wasnt shut down huh Libs?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I never had an issue with Gitmo but wonder about your logic.

    If the information was obtained 8yrs ago then shutting it down does not matter.

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