View Poll Results: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

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Thread: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

  1. #101
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Sorry, I don't see how any Tunisian could look at Iraq and say, "man, I wanna be like them!" Iraq may be a democracy at this point, but it's not a very good example of one. Internal factors in each of these countries played a much bigger role. If you can provide any evidence that the Tunisian protesters took to the streets because they looked to Iraq as a shining beacon, I would like to see it. Not to mention, why wait so long? Iraq has been a democracy since 2003-2004. What made Iraq in 2011 so special?
    AAARRGGGHHH you are so frustrating.

    What made them special in 2011 is the 2010 election that was completely safe under complete Iraqi security. A few months later Tunisia sparks the Arab revolts. Prior to this 2010 vote, Only the Shia and the Kurds voted. The Sunni boycotted. In the years that followed, Sunni and Shia Iraqis (and Sunni Arabs elsewhere) were proving that democracy will only bring misery and death as they slaughtered each other while American troops got the blame. But this changed in 2010 when they all voted together, without American security, with little to no violence. I have shown this in legth and detail already on this site in another thread with you.

    You don't see it because you do not understand the Arab culture. You see countries with borders. They see the Islamic nation and the Arab world. When one Arab nation decided to invade and hate on the new Israel, they all decided to invade or support the Arab/Israeli War. When one militarily coup'd in the 1950s (during the era of independence), they all began to militarily coup and seat dictators. Is it so hard to see the Arab trend? The Arab civilization? When one proves that Arabs do not have to live under dictator rule and can embrace democracy, they are all going to lean and travel in the same direction. There is no coincidence in these trends. This is why I have argued for years that Iraq is going to change the world. Turkey is not Sunni Arab. Iran is not Sunni Arab. Indonesia is far removed from the Sunni heartland. Lebanon attempted and failed at democracy during the "Age of Independence" due to their tribal mixture. But every single one of these rebelling and emerging democracies in this region are Sunni Arab. Not Ottoman/Turkish, not Persian/Iranian and not Kurdish (They are perhaps the most screwed over among the Muslim tribes). Remove the lines on a map and you get one civilization full of little differences. Remove the lines within the USA and you get the same thing. The "nations" in the Middle East should not exist as they are and they know it.

    Your idea of evidence only keeps you clinging to your fixed position so as to pretend that Iraq is a separate closed shadow nation unseen by the masses throughout the Middle East. I have produced plenty of statements made by Muslims throughout the region that have proven that Iraq is not invisible. And that plenty have pinned hopes upon a success because they know what it means. Even Iranian activists have been watching since 2003. If their neighbor can do it, then they can. They seem to know their culture better than you and they aren't even educated (for the most part). It is what it is. And with Saddam Hussein sitting on his Baghdad throne concretely enforcing the tired idea that Arabs deserve only dictators, the Arab nation was never going to get a successful story for anything better. The Arab nation needed a success story after decades of failure. Iraq was it. And as soon as they (Shia, Sunni, and Kurd) voted freely without outside security, they had it. Months later you wish to pretend that Tunisians were incapable of seeing what every individual in the region was watching? You are going to go as far as to pretend that each one of these nation states are oblivious to each other? That some how centuries of Arab tradition halted so that we can pretend our Iraqi protests had merit?

    I don't know what else to state about this. It's extremely obvious and it meets with the cultural experts forecasts. And no, CNN and FOX was never going to get anybody to this truth. They are too stupid, deceitful, and morally decrepit. No reporter was ever going to deliver the big picture because small details of death sell papers. No politician was ever going to produce the bigger idea of the "War on Terror" because they are either too stupid or too ensalved to getting re-elected and big business payoffs (oil and such). But the Muslim people within this region have always tried to deliver truth. They have been voicing for democracy ever since the Europeans showed up, carved them up, drew unnatural borders and dropped in brutal babysitters to keep them behaved. The problem is that two World Wars and a Cold War (also of European creations) had the rest of the world focused elsewhere and after the Cold War we pretend that all this bottled up rage would simply go away. After 9/11 people's focus only saw the radicals and extremists above the modernists. But since Iraqis proved that Arabs can do it in 2010, each and everyone of these Arab nations are rising up and demanding truth. Tunisia was the spark. Even now, people like you deny them what they have been struggling for, one way or another, because you need to pretend that you know better about them then they? That their 1400 years old culture stops at an unnatural border somebody else created?

    The truth has always been that the tribe sticks together. They all fell under one (sometimes more than one at a time) caliphate. If one gets colonized, they all get colonized. If one gets independence, they all get independence. If one gets a dictator, they all get a dictator. If one begins to produce extremists, they all begin to produce extremists because they all share the same religious heritage and are audience to the same rhetoric. If one gets democracy....... But protestors need the trend to stop around 2003 don't they?

    And once again, you don't see it, because you don't understand this. This "War on Terror" was never only about Al-Queda. Al-Queda was just the easy target for Americans and Europeans that represented the entire region. If you have children and they grow up to join the military, they will be involved in this "War on Terror" one way or another because this was always generational and it spans an entire region. Morons in Europe bombing this or that in the name of an organization that don't even know them are just distractions.

    C'mon man, why can't you see this? It might be that I study Middle Eastern culture, but there is a lot of common sense here.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-05-11 at 01:42 AM.

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  2. #102
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    I could care less what they do to these monster to get much needed info. You think they give a crap about us? No! They wish to wipe out the entire U.S.A and everyone in it so I do not give a **** about them. Do whatever ya have to get info. as far as I am concerned.

    And nope not giving up my lib card due to these feelings either
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  3. #103
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    AAARRGGGHHH you are so frustrating.

    What made them special in 2011 is the 2010 election that was completely safe under complete Iraqi security. A few months later Tunisia sparks the Arab revolts. Prior to this 2010 vote, Only the Shia and the Kurds voted. The Sunni boycotted. In the years that followed, Sunni and Shia Iraqis (and Sunni Arabs elsewhere) were proving that democracy will only bring misery and death as they slaughtered each other while American troops got the blame. But this changed in 2010 when they all voted together, without American security, with little to no violence. I have shown this in legth and detail already on this site in another thread with you.

    You don't see it because you do not understand the Arab culture. You see countries with borders. They see the Islamic nation and the Arab world. When one Arab nation decided to invade and hate on the new Israel, they all decided to invade or support the Arab/Israeli War. When one militarily coup'd in the 1950s (during the era of independence), they all began to militarily coup and seat dictators. Is it so hard to see the Arab trend? The Arab civilization? When one proves that Arabs do not have to live under dictator rule and can embrace democracy, they are all going to lean and travel in the same direction. There is no coincidence in these trends. This is why I have argued for years that Iraq is going to change the world. Turkey is not Sunni Arab. Iran is not Sunni Arab. Indonesia is far removed from the Sunni heartland. Lebanon attempted and failed at democracy during the "Age of Independence" due to their tribal mixture. But every single one of these rebelling and emerging democracies in this region are Sunni Arab. Not Ottoman/Turkish, not Persian/Iranian and not Kurdish (They are perhaps the most screwed over among the Muslim tribes). Remove the lines on a map and you get one civilization full of little differences. Remove the lines within the USA and you get the same thing. The "nations" in the Middle East should not exist as they are and they know it.

    Your idea of evidence only keeps you clinging to your fixed position so as to pretend that Iraq is a separate closed shadow nation unseen by the masses throughout the Middle East. I have produced plenty of statements made by Muslims throughout the region that have proven that Iraq is not invisible. And that plenty have pinned hopes upon a success because they know what it means. Even Iranian activists have been watching since 2003. If their neighbor can do it, then they can. They seem to know their culture better than you and they aren't even educated (for the most part). It is what it is. And with Saddam Hussein sitting on his Baghdad throne concretely enforcing the tired idea that Arabs deserve only dictators, the Arab nation was never going to get a successful story for anything better. The Arab nation needed a success story after decades of failure. Iraq was it. And as soon as they (Shia, Sunni, and Kurd) voted freely without outside security, they had it. Months later you wish to pretend that Tunisians were incapable of seeing what every individual in the region was watching? You are going to go as far as to pretend that each one of these nation states are oblivious to each other? That some how centuries of Arab tradition halted so that we can pretend our Iraqi protests had merit?

    I don't know what else to state about this. It's extremely obvious and it meets with the cultural experts forecasts. And no, CNN and FOX was never going to get anybody to this truth. They are too stupid, deceitful, and morally decrepit. No reporter was ever going to deliver the big picture because small details of death sell papers. No politician was ever going to produce the bigger idea of the "War on Terror" because they are either too stupid or too ensalved to getting re-elected and big business payoffs (oil and such). But the Muslim people within this region have always tried to deliver truth. They have been voicing for democracy ever since the Europeans showed up, carved them up, drew unnatural borders and dropped in brutal babysitters to keep them behaved. The problem is that two World Wars and a Cold War (also of European creations) had the rest of the world focused elsewhere and after the Cold War we pretend that all this bottled up rage would simply go away. After 9/11 people's focus only saw the radicals and extremists above the modernists. But since Iraqis proved that Arabs can do it in 2010, each and everyone of these Arab nations are rising up and demanding truth. Tunisia was the spark. Even now, people like you deny them what they have been struggling for, one way or another, because you need to pretend that you know better about them then they? That their 1400 years old culture stops at an unnatural border somebody else created?

    The truth has always been that the tribe sticks together. They all fell under one (sometimes more than one at a time) caliphate. If one gets colonized, they all get colonized. If one gets independence, they all get independence. If one gets a dictator, they all get a dictator. If one begins to produce extremists, they all begin to produce extremists because they all share the same religious heritage and are audience to the same rhetoric. If one gets democracy....... But protestors need the trend to stop around 2003 don't they?

    And once again, you don't see it, because you don't understand this. This "War on Terror" was never only about Al-Queda. Al-Queda was just the easy target for Americans and Europeans that represented the entire region. If you have children and they grow up to join the military, they will be involved in this "War on Terror" one way or another because this was always generational and it spans an entire region. Morons in Europe bombing this or that in the name of an organization that don't even know them are just distractions.

    C'mon man, why can't you see this? It might be that I study Middle Eastern culture, but there is a lot of common sense here.
    LOL I didn't mean to frustrate you.

    Still, you haven't provided much of an argument besides "Arabs of a feather flock together." I have not seen concrete evidence that protesters in Tunisia looked to what was happening in Iraq for inspiration. More likely factors in the revolution include bad living conditions, high unemployment, food inflation, and political repression. In fact, if we look at the reverse, it seems the Tunisian protests inspired Iraqi protest in February.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #104
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I do not see waterboarding as torture.
    remember Erich Muller? he allowed himself to be "waterboarded" live on air in a bid to prove the practice is not torture. i wonder if you would fare better than he did. he only lasted 6 seconds before he raised the alarm and conceded that it was indeed torture.

    anyone looking to downplay the brutality of it should put their money where their mouth is. have the balls to volunteer to be tied up while doing it, and stick it out for the full 30 seconds.

    a youtube vid of the attempt would be awesome too thanks.

  5. #105
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha View Post
    ......and the vital information that led to the dispatching of Osama......came straight out of Gitmo.

    Good thing it wasnt shut down huh Libs?
    waterboarding may have gotten the information, but it by no means follows that it was the only, or even the most effective way to get that information. it would be just as likely to produce false information, and I will bet you that the vast majority of information gleaned through torture, from someone who will tell you any old bull**** they think you want to hear just to get you to stop abusing them, is utterly worthless.

    it was inevitable that this event was going to be used to justify torture or back up the agenda of those who have a vested interest in keeping Guantanamo open, but don't be under any illusions that it is a valid justification. it is not.

    Osama had been living for years in a freaking mansion, in a well to do neighbourhood in our Allies Country, and apparently waterboarding was the only way the intelligence community could find him!?? well......ok then..........

  6. #106
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    LOL I didn't mean to frustrate you.

    Still, you haven't provided much of an argument besides "Arabs of a feather flock together." I have not seen concrete evidence that protesters in Tunisia looked to what was happening in Iraq for inspiration. More likely factors in the revolution include bad living conditions, high unemployment, food inflation, and political repression. In fact, if we look at the reverse, it seems the Tunisian protests inspired Iraqi protest in February.
    I think both of you guys are over simplifying the ME scenario that is currently taking place. In Tunisia, the people have taken to the streets and protested many times, and oddly enough it seems to always be in January--->

    Tunisia's Protest Wave: Where It Comes From and What It Means for Ben Ali | The Middle East Channel

    The main factor is that people throughout the ME have suffered from poverty for way too long. Tunisian peoples were dealing with high unemployment, food inflation, and an oppressive government. This led to a revolution that appears to be successful. Egypt, a country facing very similar circumstances ie...unemployment, high food costs, repressive regime, while a moderate Islamic nation saw what the people of Tunisia were doing under similar living conditions and were inspired to protest themselves.

    So while none of us may know whether Iraq was the beacon of light that helped inspire the revolution that is occurring across the ME, chances are low that this would be the case. Rather Tunisian people had a history of protesting, had become fed-up and decided to protest again. Their actions inspired the rest of the oppressed and poor throughout the ME and thus you see what we have today.

    Arabs are not sheep that needed the US to free Iraq in order to realize that they could be doing better. The conditions just had to be right and it appears they have.

  7. #107
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I think both of you guys are over simplifying the ME scenario that is currently taking place. In Tunisia, the people have taken to the streets and protested many times, and oddly enough it seems to always be in January--->

    Tunisia's Protest Wave: Where It Comes From and What It Means for Ben Ali | The Middle East Channel

    The main factor is that people throughout the ME have suffered from poverty for way too long. Tunisian peoples were dealing with high unemployment, food inflation, and an oppressive government. This led to a revolution that appears to be successful. Egypt, a country facing very similar circumstances ie...unemployment, high food costs, repressive regime, while a moderate Islamic nation saw what the people of Tunisia were doing under similar living conditions and were inspired to protest themselves.

    So while none of us may know whether Iraq was the beacon of light that helped inspire the revolution that is occurring across the ME, chances are low that this would be the case. Rather Tunisian people had a history of protesting, had become fed-up and decided to protest again. Their actions inspired the rest of the oppressed and poor throughout the ME and thus you see what we have today.

    Arabs are not sheep that needed the US to free Iraq in order to realize that they could be doing better. The conditions just had to be right and it appears they have.
    Agree completely. While it may be entirely possible, a Tunisian doesn't need Iraq to be democratic to want democracy.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  8. #108
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    IMO, things have worked out nicely for the most part. Iraq was a total and utter failure and mistake and should not have happened. I do however think that we can't just pull out and leave these places without serious backlash. For example, the Iraq troop surge was effective and I supported it. I did not support being there in the first place, but the fact that we had to finish the job there and that troops were dying daily from suicide bombers changed after that surge. Bush had us ending combat operations in Iraq at the end of 2011, but Obama will be drawing out of Iraq COMPLETELY at the end of 2011, and even with Bin Laden's death, there is no need to accelerate an already planned time table that, IMO, as a liberal, is fair and will work fine. Afghanistan needs to be re-examined. Pulling out in 2014 is absolutely ridiculous. We need to reduce the number very slowly to about 30,000 or so troops, and leave them there in a police presence to train Afghani soldiers and keep things under control. What we are doing right now is nation building, while our economy is barely even recovering back at home.

  9. #109
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Yes or no?

    Except for enhanced interrogation techniques, all is in place, and it was advanced interrogation techniques that set the stage for blowing the top off Osama von Fishfood.


    .
    Even with the capture of Bin Laden, I do not, not with our current recession (Of course I wouldn't support it even if the economy was peachy )

  10. #110
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Agree completely. While it may be entirely possible, a Tunisian doesn't need Iraq to be democratic to want democracy.
    I've been arguing with MSgt about it for months. Let me know if you convince him!
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