View Poll Results: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

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Thread: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

  1. #91
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't understand why the embargo is still in place though.
    Cuba is still a communist country. It's not socialist, as socialists embrace democracy. The same regime that tried to get nukes is still in dictatorial control of the island. Apparently, we cannot invade and nation build for a variety of reasons perhaps including deals involving the Crisis. If the Cuban people (meaning, those living in Cuba) want Americans to visit and buy their stuff, then they can become a democracy. We exercise serious economic warfare against Castro's totalitarian regime, and we should. Perhaps someday, the regime will be weak enough for the people to rise again.


    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
    1. Western democracy, especially outside the US and Europe, is a very new thing in history. We were among the first and many countries are only having democratic revolutions today. Many have not had such a revolution, and they continue to live in political darkness.
    2. We cannot invade and nation build every country at the same time. There must be priorities and nations with the resource and infrastructural capacity to nation build themselves to a considerable extent will be at the front of the line.
    3. We can invade tyranical countries by engaging them in diplomatic and economic spheres. In this way, a crack is opened for our influence even if there is not immediate and dramatic change. It's a slow method, one which I personally do not prefer, but it is a means.

    For the above three reasons, and others not mentioned, many (most if not for Europe) US "allies" were undemocratic regimes. Now, counting them today I figure the vast majority of our allies would be democratic.

    2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.
    I reject that reasoning. People very rarely, if ever, give up their freedom and vote in a tyrant knowingly. People want to have a voice in their authority - everyone does. It's animal and human nature to desire control over one's resources and decisions. Claiming that some people like being slaves and want to remain so (or that they don't know better thus they are happy) is not something for me.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 05-04-11 at 02:38 AM.

  2. #92
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Afghanistan: I understand it (thought do not necessarily agree)
    Iraq: Seriously? Why are we there and why did we go to begin with?
    Extraordinarily rendition: Do I need to explain why it's pathetic that the US admits they take part in this practice?
    Illegal Wiretapping: It's #*$(#*&$(*#&(* illegal. Stop it.
    (did I miss anything else?)

    Obviously I voted no.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

  3. #93
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Cuba is still a communist country. It's not socialist, as socialists embrace democracy. The same regime that tried to get nukes is still in dictatorial control of the island. Apparently, we cannot invade and nation build for a variety of reasons perhaps including deals involving the Crisis. If the Cuban people (meaning, those living in Cuba) want Americans to visit and buy their stuff, then they can become a democracy. We exercise serious economic warfare against Castro's totalitarian regime, and we should. Perhaps someday, the regime will be weak enough for the people to rise again.



    1. Western democracy, especially outside the US and Europe, is a very new thing in history. We were among the first and many countries are only having democratic revolutions today. Many have not had such a revolution, and they continue to live in political darkness.
    2. We cannot invade and nation build every country at the same time. There must be priorities and nations with the resource and infrastructural capacity to nation build themselves to a considerable extent will be at the front of the line.
    3. We can invade tyranical countries by engaging them in diplomatic and economic spheres. In this way, a crack is opened for our influence even if there is not immediate and dramatic change. It's a slow method, one which I personally do not prefer, but it is a means.

    For the above three reasons, and others not mentioned, many (most if not for Europe) US "allies" were undemocratic regimes. Now, counting them today I figure the vast majority of our allies would be democratic.


    I reject that reasoning. People very rarely, if ever, give up their freedom and vote in a tyrant knowingly. People want to have a voice in their authority - everyone does. It's animal and human nature to desire control over one's resources and decisions. Claiming that some people like being slaves and want to remain so (or that they don't know better thus they are happy) is not something for me.
    I agree with all your points except the first and last one. If we lifted the embargo, the Cubans would see the benefits of having freer economic flows. Afghan has no (or at least a very thin) national identity. They are a tribal society. Now, perhaps Afghan culture is entirely compatible with a functional democracy. But it will be VERY difficult to establish one that works well.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 05-04-11 at 09:05 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    I fully supported the Bush policies on Terror, and am thankful President Obama kept them in place. Bin Laden "at sea" is worth the price alone.
    My family is more important than my party.
    -Zell Miller

  5. #95
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If we lifted the embargo, the Cubans would see the benefits of having freer economic flows.
    No. Just like in Africa, the warlords would appropriate it all.

    Now, perhaps Afghan culture is entirely compatible with a functional democracy. But it will be VERY difficult to establish one that works well.
    "That works well" is subjective. How about we get some infrastructure in place before we bail? Just in the urban areas at least. Some kind of gender and human rights. I'm not asking for Eden. Once they get started, they'll figure out what they want - if we must have 'theys'.


    ps. I believe that Iraq and even Afghanistan have fueled the fire of democracy in north Africa and the ME.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 05-04-11 at 09:16 AM.

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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No. Just like in Africa, the warlords would appropriate it all.



    "That works well" is subjective. How about we get some infrastructure in place before we bail? Just in the urban areas at least. Some kind of gender and human rights. I'm not asking for Eden. Once they get started, they'll figure out what they want - if we must have 'theys'.


    ps. I believe that Iraq and even Afghanistan have fueled the fire of democracy in north Africa and the ME.
    I believe Iraq has little, if anything, to do with the Arab spring. Facebook and Twitter played a greater role.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  7. #97
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    I believe Iraq made subjects believe it was possible to vote.

  8. #98
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Iraq: Seriously? Why are we there and why did we go to begin with?
    I guess we weren't there when we kicked him out of Kuwait and supported his continued rule in Iraq. I guess we weren't there when we entered "Kurdistan" to deal with the humanitarian crisis he created soon after. I guess we weren't there when we enforced UN resolutions and bombed his country four separate times in the 1990s. I guess weren't there when we starved out millions of Iraqis for 12 years under UN approval. I guess Osama Bin Laden's use of the Iraqi starvation mission and our escellating troop force in Saudi Arabia to enforce that UN mission to legitimize 9/11 wasn't real.

    To bitch and pretend that we had no reason to take responsibility for our mess in Iraq prior to 2003 is criminal. And to suggest further that "we" are anywhere is a joke. Where were you?

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  9. #99
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I believe Iraq has little, if anything, to do with the Arab spring. Facebook and Twitter played a greater role.
    That's because you refuse to believe it. There is nothing here that doesn't make sense. Do you think that the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand would have sparked off a World War had there not been years and years of an escallating arms race between European powers? Like then, Tunisia was the spark that voting Iraqis facilitated. Arabs historically follow Arabs. This is a well known fact. It doesn't get to be dismissed so that people like you can cling to your tired protests. Everything in the Middle East is happening exactly as men like Ralph Peters and Bernard Lewis predicted even before Iraqis voted. All it takes is a bit of learning about this civilization to be able to predict its path.

    Or do you still think that this so called "War on Terror" is about an old dead man in the sea? Look between Libya and Pakistan. There's your "War on Terror." Bin Laden's death across CNN did nothing for the crowds in the chow halls over here in Afghanistan. Nobody really cared because we know the bigger picture that we have been entangled in since 9/11.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-04-11 at 11:26 PM.

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  10. #100
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    Re: Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    That's because you refuse to believe it. There is nothing here that doesn't make sense. Do you think that the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand would have sparked off a World War had there not been years and years of an escallating arms race between European powers? Like then, Tunisia was the spark that voting Iraqis facilitated. Arabs historically follow Arabs. This is a well known fact. It doesn't get to be dismissed so that people like you can cling to your tired protests. Everything in the Middle East is happening exactly as men like Ralph Peters and Bernard Lewis predicted even before Iraqis voted. All it takes is a bit of learning about this civilization to be able to predict its path.

    Or do you still think that this so called "War on Terror" is about an old dead man in the sea? Look between Libya and Pakistan. There's your "War on Terror." Bin Laden's death across CNN did nothing for the crowds in the chow halls over here in Afghanistan. Nobody really cared because we know the bigger picture that we have been entangled in since 9/11.
    Sorry, I don't see how any Tunisian could look at Iraq and say, "man, I wanna be like them!" Iraq may be a democracy at this point, but it's not a very good example of one. Internal factors in each of these countries played a much bigger role. If you can provide any evidence that the Tunisian protesters took to the streets because they looked to Iraq as a shining beacon, I would like to see it. Not to mention, why wait so long? Iraq has been a democracy since 2003-2004. What made Iraq in 2011 so special?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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