View Poll Results: Is Israel A Good Ally?

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  • Yes

    14 51.85%
  • No

    9 33.33%
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Thread: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElCid View Post
    Maybe those who disagree with you, view you as a hater.
    I'm not the one repeating the neo Nazi style canards that demonize Jews.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  2. #82
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    I think at this point in time it's pretty much a one-way relationship. The US-Israel alliance is like the couple in which the dude does everything, he works hard, takes out the garbage, buys the girl everything, and the girl doesn't even bother to make him a sandwich or suck his dick.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  3. #83
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    To me it's not so much of an issue of 'what have they done to others - or what have others done to them' - the issue of how much of an 'ally' they are comes from examining the actions *of* being an ally - and *of* being reliant on one.

    Are they on our side politically? Yes - we hold many of the same views and values.

    But are they reliant *on* us or do they work in tandem *with* us?
    They are reliant *on* us - and because of their current situations they cannot *work* in tandem with us to the extent that a technical ally does. You know: in it together, supporting eachother, tit for tat, I've got your back nd you've got mine. They have so many issues on the homefront they cannot spread theirselves around. It just doesn't work that way for them.

    Because of their issues they cannot step in and help as an ally would.

    Partner, yes. Raliant, yes. Supportive, yes. Sharing values and beliefs, yes. Technical ally, no.

    What they do with/to Palestine et al does not factor in - that's not what *makes* an ally - and it shouldn't be that big of a deal to discuss, honestly. Many countries fall UNDER our umbrella as opposed to helping hold the umbrella UP.
    I think this is a very reasonable take on the relationship, though I would counter the idea that the U.S. gets nothing out of the relationship. The reality is that Israel serves to complement U.S. actions overseas and not just in the Middle East. Mossad is believed to carry out a number of actions in Latin America pursuant to U.S. goals in the region. However, that aside I do not think it should be characterized as a matter of Israel being a good ally to the U.S. Without question Israel's government does good work in service of the U.S. government's ends but I do not think these actions make Israel a good ally of the American people because the ends of our government are not really in the interest of the American people.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

  4. #84
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Not only USA, but also the entirely Western World must help Israel.

    Reasons:

    1. If Israel ceases out to exist all churches will be transformed to Mosques.
    2. Israel is a bastion against Islamization.
    3. Israel possess excellent know-how in fight against Islamic terrorism.
    4. Israel is only Democracy in the Middle East.
    5. Israel has many good technologies.
    Alfons has made it so I didn't even have to reply, I think he covered almost all of the bases.

  5. #85
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think at this point in time it's pretty much a one-way relationship. The US-Israel alliance is like the couple in which the dude does everything, he works hard, takes out the garbage, buys the girl everything, and the girl doesn't even bother to make him a sandwich or suck his dick.
    I agree and I think we should go testify before Congress and use this exact description so they get in through their heads.

  6. #86
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    I think this is a very reasonable take on the relationship, though I would counter the idea that the U.S. gets nothing out of the relationship. The reality is that Israel serves to complement U.S. actions overseas and not just in the Middle East. Mossad is believed to carry out a number of actions in Latin America pursuant to U.S. goals in the region. However, that aside I do not think it should be characterized as a matter of Israel being a good ally to the U.S. Without question Israel's government does good work in service of the U.S. government's ends but I do not think these actions make Israel a good ally of the American people because the ends of our government are not really in the interest of the American people.
    Yes - I agree. But does that necessitate an 'ally' or does that necessitate a single positive?
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You're wrong, disgbe's comment was discussing Palestinian terrorism. "They employ terrorism" is a different statement from "they employ terrorism and terrorism alone".

    I don't care of your problems, I'm not a therapist. However you did compare the legitimacy of Israeli-employed violence and Palestinian-employed violence even though we're talking about self-defense versus unjustified attacks here.

    You have the right to hold a damaged opinion.

    Hirushima and stuff like that, not in today's world where things are completely different. I took time to explain why the negative overwhelms the so-called positive.

    Objectivity? I've already alerted you that I'm not merely discussing things out of empty air. Regardless you're the claims-maker and you choose to base your claims on opinions and not on reality, thus I can only point out that your opinions are damaged and move on. Unless you give me something to work with I will not be able to go further than discussing your own opinions and how different they are from the reality I have experienced.

    Never is a long time, and the US did exist for a long time. I'm discussing modern age.
    Israel is not as innocent as your biased accounts of "reality" is making it out to be. And your insistence that Israeli violence is the only legitimate violence in this conflict evidence that you are incapable of making an evidence-based analysis of the situation.

    Nonetheless, you have not made a good case for Israel being a good ally to the United States. Its efforts to solve the IP conflict are mediocre and do not outweigh the damage it does to the US as an ally. Moreover, it continually excuses its excess use of force in the same way you have done here by pointing to the Palestinians as if Israel hasn't done anything wrong in the conflict. I'm over it. The US needs to restructure its relationship with Israel - the blame game is getting old.

  8. #88
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Not only USA, but also the entirely Western World must help Israel.

    Reasons:

    1. If Israel ceases out to exist all churches will be transformed to Mosques.
    2. Israel is a bastion against Islamization.
    3. Israel possess excellent know-how in fight against Islamic terrorism.
    4. Israel is only Democracy in the Middle East.
    5. Israel has many good technologies.
    So you're view centers around pure religious aspects and the possible future indirect gains such as *maybe* some technology advancements.. . . . None if it is 'ally heavy' - all of that is *why* someone might support a country or a cause. I didn't think we were discussing why you might find it acceptable for us to support them - I thought we were discussing whether they are classified as an ally or other.

    So - does all of that reaosning, there, dictate them being an ally - or something else?

    I'll point out that "because Islam might spread" is a horrible argument to make - our 1st Amendment states that our congress cannot pass any laws that favor one religion over another - if we HAVE religious reasoning for our support it's could be in violation of our own Constitutional values. . . Making that argument ill advised in general.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-01-11 at 09:25 PM.
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  9. #89
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yes - I agree. But does that necessitate an 'ally' or does that necessitate a single positive?
    If you see an alliance as an equal relationship then the U.S. has few, if any, allies.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

  10. #90
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    If you see an alliance as an equal relationship then the U.S. has few, if any, allies.
    This is why I'm getting kind of tired of our "alliances" as they are. I think we need to start pulling back a bit and letting everybody take control of their own security - not just Israel, everybody.

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