View Poll Results: Is Israel A Good Ally?

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  • Yes

    14 51.85%
  • No

    9 33.33%
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Thread: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

  1. #71
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodOleBoy View Post
    Go **** yourself mod. Go ahead ban me from this **** hole I won't be returning I got better forums to be on...to many brainwashed lemmings here no helping them. So **** you. Maybe that will get me banned...
    Then GTFO already.
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I want to know if DP thinks Israel is a good ally to the United States. These are the conditions for "good":

    1. Security - Does our alliance with Israel help or hurt our security? If it does both, does the help outweigh the hurt?

    2. Loyalty - Does Israel ever intentionally act against U.S. interests? If so, do the benefits of our alliance outweigh the consequences of those actions?

    3. Cost - Do the benefits of our alliance outweigh the costs, financial and political, of this alliance?

    Make a case for keeping or ending our alliance with Israel. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle with a lean towards "ending".
    Let's remember the question at hand. It's about Israel as a quality ally...This isn't a life or death question here. Just sayin'.

  3. #73
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    No. I actually wanted the person to answer the question. My position on Palestinian and Israeli violence is that they are both irresponsible with their use of force and that when either side blames violence solely on one or the other side, they're not acknowledging the role each has in perpetuating the violence.
    If you believe the Palestinians to have other options except of murdering innocent Jewish civilians then you would answer your question yourself as it is a rhetorical question. If you do not then you fall under my interpretation.

    Both Israel and Palestine murder innocent civilians. I personally think a lot of the one-sided anger Americans have with Palestinian terrorism comes from their sympathies with Israel. Like I said, both are irresponsible with the use of force and both kill civilians. Palestine may target civilians more, but Israel is overzealous with its use of force and has killed a lot of innocents, including children, as a result.
    There is a strong difference between killing civilians by mistake (something the US army does a lot, a lot more often than the IDF does as you probably know) and actually murdering a person. "Israel" does not murder innocent civilians, as that would require an order from above to the soldiers to shoot and kill people they know are innocents. That's never been the case fortunately and probably never will.


    Of course numbers are not the end all be all, but I also think your faith in how Israel tries not to target civilians is a bit misguided.
    That's clearly not a possibility for clear and expected reasons. Usually it is the person who gets to hide the treasure who knows best where the treasure is hidden at.

    I don't think Israel wants to just kill innocent people, but I think they see a strategic value in targeting civilians along with militants. I also think that Israel could decrease civilians' sympathy with terrorist organizations (and in turn, their power) by appearing more serious about coming up with a solution to the current conflict.
    I respect your opinion but I honestly think you're wrong.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 05-01-11 at 05:56 PM.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  4. #74
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?X Factor is now thread banned.
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    If you believe the Palestinians to have other options except of murdering innocent Jewish civilians then you would answer your question yourself as it is a rhetorical question. If you do not then you fall under my interpretation.
    The problem is that your criticism of my question assumes that I endorse the common implication in this thread that all Palestinian violence in about murdering innocent Jewish civilians, which is not. I have a problem with the implication that all Palestinian violence is terrorism when it clearly isn't. So my "what would you have them do?" was a question about why Israel can commit violence and Palestine can't.

    There is a strong difference between killing civilians by mistake (something the US army does a lot, a lot more often than the IDF does as you probably know) and actually murdering a person. "Israel" does not murder innocent civilians, as that would require an order from above to the soldiers to shoot and kill people they know are innocents. That's never been the case fortunately and probably never will.
    The idea that the US and Israeli military (or any military for that matter) has not purposely included civilians in their strategic attacks is ridiculous and I'm not going to entertain it. It's not terrorism in the sense that we exclusively attack civilians, but it's ridiculous to believe that civilian deaths are simply "mistakes".

    That's clearly not a possibility for clear and expected reasons. Usually it is the person who gets to hide the treasure who knows best where the treasure is hidden at.
    Like I said, the notion that the Israeli military only kills civilians by "mistake" is ludicrous. Attacking civilian targets is a military strategy as it is sometimes believed to weaken the morale of the opposition.

    I respect your opinion but I honestly think you're wrong.
    Right back at you. I think you're denying the fact that attacking civilians is a strategy considered and implemented by even the most humanitarian militaries.

  6. #76
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    To me it's not so much of an issue of 'what have they done to others - or what have others done to them' - the issue of how much of an 'ally' they are comes from examining the actions *of* being an ally - and *of* being reliant on one.

    Are they on our side politically? Yes - we hold many of the same views and values.

    But are they reliant *on* us or do they work in tandem *with* us?
    They are reliant *on* us - and because of their current situations they cannot *work* in tandem with us to the extent that a technical ally does. You know: in it together, supporting eachother, tit for tat, I've got your back nd you've got mine. They have so many issues on the homefront they cannot spread theirselves around. It just doesn't work that way for them.

    Because of their issues they cannot step in and help as an ally would.

    Partner, yes. Raliant, yes. Supportive, yes. Sharing values and beliefs, yes. Technical ally, no.

    What they do with/to Palestine et al does not factor in - that's not what *makes* an ally - and it shouldn't be that big of a deal to discuss, honestly. Many countries fall UNDER our umbrella as opposed to helping hold the umbrella UP.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-01-11 at 06:22 PM.
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The problem is that your criticism of my question assumes that I endorse the common implication in this thread that all Palestinian violence in about murdering innocent Jewish civilians, which is not. I have a problem with the implication that all Palestinian violence is terrorism when it clearly isn't.
    Oh but your question "what do you expect them to do" was a reply to a comment discussing Palestinian terrorism, so it's really undeniable that this was the subject of your question as well.

    So my "what would you have them do?" was a question about why Israel can commit violence and Palestine can't.
    Clearly violence is only justified in certain cases such as self-defense and not when directed at civilians and clearly the objection is to violence that is being directed deliberately at civilians. Clearly I do not need to tell you that as clearly you should have been able to understand it on your own.

    The idea that the US and Israeli military (or any military for that matter) has not purposely included civilians in their strategic attacks is ridiculous and I'm not going to entertain it.
    Oh but I object, there's nothing ridiculous in pointing out the reality of the situation. I'm not saying it didn't happen several decades ago, but in the modern age it is safe to say that civilians are not being targeted as part of a policy or order by any Western military, including the Israeli and US military.

    It's not terrorism in the sense that we exclusively attack civilians, but it's ridiculous to believe that civilian deaths are simply "mistakes".
    It's ridiculous to assume that we have an intention to cause deaths amongst uninvolved civilians when we know too well the implications it has on motivating further terrorist attacks on our civilians from their side. After all maintaining the safety of its civilians is the top objective of any legitimate government.

    Like I said, the notion that the Israeli military only kills civilians by "mistake" is ludicrous. Attacking civilian targets is a military strategy as it is sometimes believed to weaken the morale of the opposition.
    Accoridng to you, not to reality. It has more negative implications than it would ever have on the positive side. You're also forgetting the fact that the soldiers are human beings who are grown on Western values and thus cannot really be ordered to kill a person they know is innocent. For example in the Israeli military there's a law stating that an order that is perceived by the soldier to be a strongly immoral order such as the killing of people the soldier knows are innocents is to be refused and reported on. That's only one of the many reasons such orders cannot really exist in the military of a Western and civilized nation.

    Right back at you. I think you're denying the fact that attacking civilians is a strategy considered and implemented by even the most humanitarian militaries.
    I still honestly think you're wrong and are misleading yourself due to the lack of evidence you are being exposed to. You are convincing yourself of a falsehood and that's never a good thing.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    To me it's not so much of an issue of 'what have they done to others - or what have others done to them' - the issue of how much of an 'ally' they are comes from examining the actions *of* being an ally - and *of* being reliant on one.

    Are they on our side politically? Yes - we hold many of the same views and values.

    But are they reliant *on* us or do they work in tandem *with* us?
    They are reliant *on* us - and because of their current situations they cannot *work* in tandem with us to the extent that a technical ally does. You know: in it together, supporting eachother, tit for tat, I've got your back nd you've got mine. They have so many issues on the homefront they cannot spread theirselves around. It just doesn't work that way for them.

    Because of their issues they cannot step in and help as an ally would.

    Partner, yes. Raliant, yes. Supportive, yes. Sharing values and beliefs, yes. Technical ally, no.

    What they do with/to Palestine et al does not factor in - that's not what *makes* an ally - and it shouldn't be that big of a deal to discuss, honestly. Many countries fall UNDER our umbrella as opposed to helping hold the umbrella UP.
    I agree with this, especially the highlighted area. I wouldn't say that most US "allies" do very much to help the United States accomplish its goals. We're pretty much keeping everyone safe, giving military support and economic support among other things. That's why people bring up the freerider issue a lot with regard to US allies including Israel. The main benefit Israel and other allies provide to us is in promoting our brand of what the ideal world would look like.

  9. #79
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Oh but your question "what do you expect them to do" was a reply to a comment discussing Palestinian terrorism, so it's really undeniable that this was the subject of your question as well.
    It actually wasn't. That's what you interpreted the comment as. It was in reply to a comment implying that all Palestinian violence is terrorism. This is what I take issue with.

    Clearly violence is only justified in certain cases such as self-defense and not when directed at civilians and clearly the objection is to violence that is being directed deliberately at civilians. Clearly I do not need to tell you that as clearly you should have been able to understand it on your own.
    Don't knock my understanding since you had project all kinds of crap onto my question and other people's statements. I have a problem with the constant talking about Palestinian violence as if it all terrorism.

    Oh but I object, there's nothing ridiculous in pointing out the reality of the situation. I'm not saying it didn't happen several decades ago, but in the modern age it is safe to say that civilians are not being targeted as part of a policy or order by any Western military, including the Israeli and US military.
    Right. I disagree. Civilian targets can be strategically useful.

    It's ridiculous to assume that we have an intention to cause deaths amongst uninvolved civilians when we know too well the implications it has on motivating further terrorist attacks on our civilians from their side. After all maintaining the safety of its civilians is the top objective of any legitimate government.
    Why is that ridiculous? You've even admitted it may have happened several decades ago.

    Accoridng to you, not to reality. It has more negative implications than it would ever have on the positive side. You're also forgetting the fact that the soldiers are human beings who are grown on Western values and thus cannot really be ordered to kill a person they know is innocent. For example in the Israeli military there's a law stating that an order that is perceived by the soldier to be a strongly immoral order such as the killing of people the soldier knows are innocents is to be refused and reported on. That's only one of the many reasons such orders cannot really exist in the military of a Western and civilized nation.
    I agree it has more negative implications in certain circumstances. However, lots of things have negative consequences and that doesn't stop governments from doing them. Nonetheless, I find it amusing that you consider my comments opinion and your comments "reality". We're both talking about things from our own knowledge of international politics - you're overestimating the objectivity of your own opinions.

    I still honestly think you're wrong and are misleading yourself due to the lack of evidence you are being exposed to. You are convincing yourself of a falsehood and that's never a good thing.
    Are you saying that the Israeli and US militaries have never targeted civilians?

  10. #80
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    Re: Is Israel a Good Ally to the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It actually wasn't. That's what you interpreted the comment as. It was in reply to a comment implying that all Palestinian violence is terrorism. This is what I take issue with.
    You're wrong, disgbe's comment was discussing Palestinian terrorism. "They employ terrorism" is a different statement from "they employ terrorism and terrorism alone".

    Don't knock my understanding since you had project all kinds of crap onto my question and other people's statements. I have a problem with the constant talking about Palestinian violence as if it all terrorism.
    I don't care of your problems, I'm not a therapist. However you did compare the legitimacy of Israeli-employed violence and Palestinian-employed violence even though we're talking about self-defense versus unjustified attacks here.

    Right. I disagree. Civilian targets can be strategically useful.
    You have the right to hold a damaged opinion.

    Why is that ridiculous? You've even admitted it may have happened several decades ago.
    Hirushima and stuff like that, not in today's world where things are completely different. I took time to explain why the negative overwhelms the so-called positive.

    I agree it has more negative implications in certain circumstances. However, lots of things have negative consequences and that doesn't stop governments from doing them. Nonetheless, I find it amusing that you consider my comments opinion and your comments "reality". We're both talking about things from our own knowledge of international politics - you're overestimating the objectivity of your own opinions.
    Objectivity? I've already alerted you that I'm not merely discussing things out of empty air. Regardless you're the claims-maker and you choose to base your claims on opinions and not on reality, thus I can only point out that your opinions are damaged and move on. Unless you give me something to work with I will not be able to go further than discussing your own opinions and how different they are from the reality I have experienced.

    Are you saying that the Israeli and US militaries have never targeted civilians?
    Never is a long time, and the US did exist for a long time. I'm discussing modern age.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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