View Poll Results: Would you support Progressive Grading?

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Thread: Progressive Grading in School

  1. #271
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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Part of the problem with a culture taught to prize material success is that success has to be plausible or people will think there's a better deal waiting for them somewhere. The answer to that is to no longer encourage material success.
    ooommmmmmmmmm.....


    sorry, but no. the human desire to provide for ones self as much as you can with as little effort as you can is juuuuust about universal.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    a vague notion of fairness? a decision that we should treat two things of like sources differently just because it feels better? because one of them screws us and another screws others?
    People are going to be unfairly screwed if we do anything or if we do nothing (and have a lessez faire economy). So we make the best choice we can and make our best optimizations, based on our own viewpoints of course. This is the whole point of having a society and its best use (in my opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    then the grades do not belong to the student and we are free to do with them as we please.
    If the system called for it, sure, but it would not be a good system. Trying to pin me down to an either or position won't work because I am taking things as a case by case basis and because of the differences I pointed out, there is no reason to treat them the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    really? would you like me to go get you some quick figures on the GPA differences of minority children from single-parent families v those of middle class two-parent white households? do you think there would be a strong distinction? work comes from factors that we are self do not generate - we are imparted a work ethic from our parents who then hold us to standards. will the work or the value of the work be greater or lesser in a family where the parents sit down and go over the homework with the child?
    I think there would be correlation between economic class, sure. However, you went too far with my point. More directly comparable does not mean absolutes as you seem to be trying to depict.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and so the dividing line is whether or not the move is of net benefit to those who are receiving the subsidy?
    The benefit to society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    because you know the next thing I"m going to do is demonstrate to you how wealth redistribution has created a dependency class in the United States of America, trained an entire underclass of people to depend on hand out after hand out after hand out that will always be coming... we have destroyed the black family in this country, we have shoved entire generations into illiteracy, illegitimacy, incarceration, and a brokenness of spirit because we were naive enough to think that simple wealth redistribution would build them up rather than create an entitlement society.
    I have seen examples of your demonstration in thread after thread, they are not very convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so the goal is solid what you're going with?
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    then I'm going to need a clear deliniation of how the goals are different (both education and wealth redistribution strike me as attempts to build someone up), and how that difference somehow means that we should treat one product which is the result of a swirl of factors including intelligence, raising, work ethic, and so on differently from another product which is the result of a swirl of factors including intelligence, raising, work ethic, and so on.
    (my) goals are the same, to build up society. However, since money and grades have different properties (for example money is a form of currency while grades, while can be seen as a currency, really aren't), the methods are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    except that we are agreed that redistribution does not increase the quality of the recipient.

    and better grades are useful to many students.
    You will have to show me where I agreed to that, if I did, I do not remember it. There are a number of ways that redistribution can increase quality, allowing someone to go to college is one example.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    but that is my precise point. you are attempting to seperate one of these things from its' nature. which I don't know.
    Then I guess we disagree what the fundamental nature of these things are.

  3. #273
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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    Absolutely not. Ridiculous idea.
    Let's apply this question to taxes and wealth next.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    They are not comparable, because if the grades are not a reflection of the education they received, then they are worthless, while money, no matter how it is earned, still has value.
    No it really doesn't. Value is not a condition that is there at all times, it is only there in our minds. If you receive money that you didn't work for you don't think of it has highly, causing whatever value it could of had otherwise to be decreased.

    If you don't earn the money work ethic is effected weakening the society as a whole. The truth is doing the same for education wouldn't be all that different in the end. It would weaken the value of the education, just like giving results weakens the value of money and work ethic.
    Last edited by Henrin; 04-30-11 at 11:23 PM.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Let's apply this question to taxes and wealth next.
    Congratulations American! You just made the logical leap to a conclusion that we have been discussing for the last 27 pages!

  6. #276
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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ooommmmmmmmmm.....


    sorry, but no. the human desire to provide for ones self as much as you can with as little effort as you can is juuuuust about universal.
    I wasn't making a serious proposal. I was pointing out that there is a bit of double speak on the idea that people need to be ambitious but that they also need to not be prima donnas when it comes to applying for a job.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-30-11 at 11:28 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I wasn't making a serious proposal. I was pointing out that there is a bit of double speak on the idea that people need to be ambitious but that they also need to not be prima donnas when it comes to applying for a job.
    ambition =/= vanity. one of the best bosses i ever worked for a was a high-demand 5-start restaraunt manager. the man made 6 figures, was worth 7, and started every day........ by cleaning the male restroom. Insisted on doing, it, in fact - and when I became a front manager under him, he made sure I started my day by doing it as well. because the point was that I was just the server of the servers... there to make sure that the restaraunt did everything well, and there was no work that i was too good for.

    there is a distinct difference between wanting to better oneself and demanding that the world accept you as already bettered.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No it really doesn't. Value is not a condition that is there at all times, it is only there in our minds. If you receive money that you didn't work for you don't think of it has highly, causing whatever value it could of had otherwise to be decreased.

    If you don't earn the money work ethic is effected weakening the society as a whole. The truth is doing the same for education wouldn't be all that different in the end. It would weaken the value of the education, just like giving results weakens the value of money and work ethic.
    You know when you read a post and your first thought is "Damn, I wish I had thought of that...."

    this was it.

  9. #279
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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ambition =/= vanity. one of the best bosses i ever worked for a was a high-demand 5-start restaraunt manager. the man made 6 figures, was worth 7, and started every day........ by cleaning the male restroom. Insisted on doing, it, in fact - and when I became a front manager under him, he made sure I started my day by doing it as well. because the point was that I was just the server of the servers... there to make sure that the restaraunt did everything well, and there was no work that i was too good for.

    there is a distinct difference between wanting to better oneself and demanding that the world accept you as already bettered.
    Sure, although I'm referring specifically to the situation where a person is kicking back on welfare because they don't want to make a contractual commitment to a job that entails a significantly smaller salary than what they're accustomed to earning on the chance a better opportunity will come up in the future, one that will provide better for them and their dependents.

    No it really doesn't. Value is not a condition that is there at all times, it is only there in our minds. If you receive money that you didn't work for you don't think of it has highly, causing whatever value it could of had otherwise to be decreased.

    If you don't earn the money work ethic is effected weakening the society as a whole. The truth is doing the same for education wouldn't be all that different in the end. It would weaken the value of the education, just like giving results weakens the value of money and work
    That's not a serious risk in American society, as opposed to the risks of not having welfare. Put simply, a civilization can't make significant material advancements without welfare; if poverty spirals out of control for a few years then it will diminish supply and demand (and therefore technological refinement) for a much longer period of time.

    I'm not say welfare doesn't have both present and theoretical dangers, but the dilution of America's work ethic isn't one of them.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-30-11 at 11:43 PM.
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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I wasn't making a serious proposal. I was pointing out that there is a bit of double speak on the idea that people need to be ambitious but that they also need to not be prima donnas when it comes to applying for a job.
    Your proposal many people consider serious and make seriously. You idea needs a new set of rules that don't exist and never will. The basics are simple people might lose ambition when you give them free things, but they also lose ambition when you don't allow them to profit from their ideas. Ambition is a easy straight forward idea and cared out just as easily with just as much ease, the only way to max it out is if you allow as much freedom to profit as possible. Doing anything else can only be described as dreaming. People need the ability to profit to move, otherwise, no one will move. Just like they need a reason to move and needs is that reason. You can't give them what they need, but you can't also restrict what they can gain doing either will result in the same ends, a weak country with no ambition, no drive, and no desire.

    This isn't a game where you can make the rules, the rules are set, have been set, and are going to continue to be set until we no longer exist. You either play by them or you get what we have now and where we are going.
    Last edited by Henrin; 04-30-11 at 11:59 PM.

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