View Poll Results: Would you support Progressive Grading?

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Thread: Progressive Grading in School

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the plan is designed to give something to poor minority students. 15 of 15 people oppose giving that something to those students. obviously they are against those students.


    that's the way the logic works, right? we're balancing the grade bell curve on the backs of the disadvantaged? unfairly tilting grade allocation in the favor of an elite few?
    If you give them something that doesn't benefit them and could harm them, it does no good.

    Of course this will lead to a discussion of the efficacy of the welfare state, but I figure thats where you are trying to go anyway. Nice trap statement.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the plan is designed to give something to poor minority students. 15 of 15 people oppose giving that something to those students. obviously they are against those students.


    that's the way the logic works, right? we're balancing the grade bell curve on the backs of the disadvantaged? unfairly tilting grade allocation in the favor of an elite few?
    It's for their own good. Why raise false expectations? They are only looking to be sports superstars or the mac daddy drug kingpins, anyways. They don't need hypocritical a's to reinforce their low self-esteem.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If you give them something that doesn't benefit them and could harm them, it does no good.
    of course it benefits them. it gets them to the next class. giving someone a welfare payment get's them to the next day. in neither scenario has the individual been made more capable of succeeding at taking care of themself.

    Of course this will lead to a discussion of the efficacy of the welfare state, but I figure thats where you are trying to go anyway
    actually i am, but i don't know if anyone else will go there with me, perhaps i'll make it a Loft thread.

    . Nice trap statement.
    it's not my fault the logic fits this scenario as well as others. do you see now how ridiculous it looks from the other side?
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-30-11 at 04:34 PM.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    of course it benefits them. it gets them to the next class. giving someone a welfare payment get's them to the next day. in neither scenario has the individual been made more capable of succeeding at taking care of themself.



    it's not my fault the logic fits this scenario as well as others. do you see now how ridiculous it looks from the other side?
    Ok, so extending the bad analogy in the OP to another bad analogy somehow proves a point? You are willing to go this low?

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not talking about general taxation, which you're mixing with this.
    I'm specifically questioning why one institution of "progressiveness" is right and another is wrong, when both are neither egalitarian in design, nor result.

    As others have pointed out, when you transfer grades to lower performers, you are depriving them of a true education.
    Can not the same thing be said, when you transfer money or services to a person, that are not based on educating them?
    I'm not mixing up anything. Economies are driven by production and consumption of goods and services. In societies where poverty snowballs to encompass a substantial portion of the population, the production and consumption of goods and services slows down (because too much of the population's energy potential is inefficient), and unfortunately, it is exponentially easier to pass into the poverty threshold than to rise out of it -- you have to devote more resources to lifting people out of poverty than keeping them out of it. Since welfare keeps up consumption and production to higher levels than would be the case in a laissez faire society, more wealth is generated overall for all levels of society over long periods of time.

    Granted, when a person is a recipient of welfare, their energy potential isn't being utilized effectively, but welfare preserves them until such a point they can again become useful to the economy.

    Consider: a person with a household and appliances has to produce or service a lot in order to maintain that household and appliances, meaning their energy is being directed toward actions that maintain civilization. If a person loses their ability to maintain that household during a recession and becomes homeless, then they lose most of their incentive and ability to keep applying their energy to useful ends, which both delays recovery and prevents economic booms from occurring once the recession ends. It's more beneficial overall to preserve households than let them slip into poverty.

    That's one reason why welfare exists. History selected it for survival because civilizations that possessed welfare became stronger than those that did not. Welfare, for example, was an important institution in both classical Athens and Ancient Rome.

    The ethics of this is that since a population that is actively maintaining households and appliances provides greater opportunity for profit than a poverty-stricken mass, high earners have a vested interest in operating a welfare system.

    The same isn't true of students in a classroom. High-performing students have no vested interest in low performers (unless they have an arrangement with low performers in a curve system so that they don't have to work very hard for their good grades) and their lack of productive activity, because a classroom is an artificial environment where mutual dependence is far lower than in society as a whole.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-30-11 at 04:59 PM.
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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by pzycho View Post
    It's for their own good. Why raise false expectations? They are only looking to be sports superstars or the mac daddy drug kingpins, anyways. They don't need hypocritical a's to reinforce their low self-esteem.
    what they need is for their fathers to marry their mothers and for them to get jobs.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok, so extending the bad analogy in the OP to another bad analogy somehow proves a point? You are willing to go this low?
    i'm sticking with the original analogy. those who oppose transfer payments to the poor are accused often of targeting the poor - ridiculously of wanting to hurt the poor. as though Republicans sit around all day chuckling and thinking up ideas on how to steal from single mothers. the left (i charitably decide) confuses disagreement with its' means with disagreement with its' motivation.



    but, the middle point is what I want to take elsewhere. I have decided that conservatives do not spend enough time focusing on how to actually help the poor. we have worked with the left-wing option of subsidizing poverty for decades now, and I don't see how it has helped much - but i do see where it has done immense harm. Conservatives are full of ideas on how to boost the economy, and that's fine; the poor benefit from that too - but there ought to be a way to reshape and reform government programs to turn them into actual poverty reduction programs.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-30-11 at 05:17 PM.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, the middle point is what I want to take elsewhere. I have decided that conservatives do not spend enough time focusing on how to actually help the poor. we have worked with the left-wing option of subsidizing poverty for decades now, and I don't see how it has helped much - but i do see where it has done immense harm. Conservatives are full of ideas on how to boost the economy, and that's fine; the poor benefit from that too - but there ought to be a way to reshape and reform government programs to turn them into actual poverty reduction programs.
    Good, there is always room in policy discussion on how to further optimize the system. I welcome this sort of discussion, but it would be better to use a logical basis to launch your ideas off of and not this whole progressive grading thing.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Good, there is always room in policy discussion on how to further optimize the system. I welcome this sort of discussion, but it would be better to use a logical basis to launch your ideas off of and not this whole progressive grading thing.
    this bit is useful mostly as a model, to demonstrate a flaw in logic.

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    Re: Progressive Grading in School

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Most of us are not really talking about education. We are talking about the fatally flawed comparison of taxes and grades.
    Why can't you isolate the question in your mind and answer it instead of trying to figure out how you can talk around the topic without answering it?


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