View Poll Results: Are gay people "abnormal"?

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  • Yes

    31 32.98%
  • No

    63 67.02%
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Thread: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

  1. #411
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    One could argue that everyone does something abnormal, or is in some way abnormal, hence abnormality is the norm.
    That is a position that I find intolerable and to be a complete cop-out. There are clear 'right' and 'wrongs' in society and this progressive position that is being pushed by you and others is disgusting.

    Much of what is being pushed by progressives is nothing more than the decay of morals and common sense.
    Last edited by Jaaaman; 05-01-11 at 10:04 AM.

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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaaaman View Post
    That is a position that I find intolerable and to be a complete cop-out. There are clear 'right' and 'wrongs' in society and this progressive position that is being pushed by you and others is disgusting.
    Right and wrong are completely subjective, however, two things that aren't subjective are the facts that homosexuality is abnormal , and that everyone is abnormal in some way, therefore, the logical conclusion from that is that while something may be abnormal in of itself, being abnormal is completely normal.
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Right and wrong are completely subjective,
    I don't believe that right and wrong is completely subjective since I believe in moral reasoning, but completely arbitrary definitions of morality such as that offered by Jaaman are certainly indefensable. There is really nothing to argue if you adopt either stance -- that morality is absolutely fixed, finite and arbitrary , or that it is completely relativistic, since in the first case the propnant is simply providing a recipe to follow with which one either agrees or disagrees, while in the latter, they are indulging in nihilism.

    I think it is better to construct arguments based upon moral principles and following through logically rather than resorting to the relativistic copouts. I/E -- morality can be defined according to that behavior which causes harm, and then detail one's arguments accordingly.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  4. #414
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Where do you get your numbers from?

    Homosexuality: Nature, Nurture, or Politically Correct?

    The question of the nature of homosexuality has become an issue of a

    significantly political, as well as, politically correct nature. Is it nature or nurture? The

    fact that the standard question has eliminated the psychological possibility is a politically

    correct success. The motivational politics of homosexuality are clarified by reading

    "Homosexual Conduct and the Law," by Irving J. Sloan:

    The earliest legal argument for outlawing homosexuality is found in

    Plato's Laws ... Prohibitions on male homosexuality in the Old Testament,

    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an

    abomination (Leviticus: 18:22). . . ." "If a man also lie with mankind, as

    with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall

    surely be put to death; their blood shall be them (Leviticus: 20:13)."(1)

    To paraphrase Sloan, death by burning, hanging, burying alive... exile, castration,

    corporal punishment, etc., have been politically correct solutions for homosexuality (2-4).

    This history presents some of the motivational forces driving advocacy groups to promote

    studies indicating a genetic link to homosexuality. Recent genetic studies have shown

    links to personality (Colt, George Howe, 1998), overall happiness, psychornotor reaction

    time (Simonen et al, 1998), mathematics disability (Alarcon, Marciela, 1997) and many

    factors which had been presumed to be the province of nurture (environment). Is there a

    genetic component to homosexuality as opposed to heterosexuality? This question begs

    for answers, and answers are available if one approaches the subject matter logically.

    In this age of computers, the logical starting place is established databases, and in

    this specific case, a database of twins would be ideal. Hershberger's study of the study

    by Lykken et al., "The Minnesota Twin Family Regist is exactly that and is used

    extensively by many of the authors whose works are cited on these pages. To paraphrase

    the study, twins registered in the State of Minnesota from 1936 to 1955 were sent

    questionnaires, the replies allowing analysis of whether or not the twins were

    monozygotic (identical) or dizygotic (fraternal). The questionnaire also requested the

    twin~ sexual orientation, his/her twil sexual orientation, his/her non-twin siblings sexual

    orientation, marital status, sexual orientation before age 25 and after age 25, and the

    number and frequency of sexual encounters with persons of the same or opposite sex (3

    of 3, 5,6,7 of 7).

    An initial study of the Australian Twin Registry database by Michael Bailey of

    Northwestern and Richard Pillard of the Boston School of Medicine was highly

    publicized internationally as the proof of a high genetic influence for



    homosexuality (Shapiro 4 of 6),,The study was refuted by one of the authors in a

    subsequent and much less publicized study, as documented by Jones in "The Incredibly

    Shrinking Gay Gene ... .. Michael Bailey of Northwestern has produced a study that

    refutes his earlier research conducted with Richard Pillard of the Boston School of

    Medicine, which claimed that there is a high genetic influence on homosexuality "(53).

    In this same study " Only 3 pairs of identical male twins were both homosexual out of a

    total of 27 male identical twin pairs where at least one twin was homosexual"(53). These

    27 pairs had 100% gene match in the individual twin pairs. If the gene was a significant

    influencing factor, the incidence of homosexuality for both twins should have been much

    higher. This is saying that homosexuality is not a genetic marker. These are identical

    twins with same color eyes (genetic marker), same hair color (genetic marker), near

    100% shared attributes (genetic markers), but no genetic marker for homosexuality.

    Actually, 10% of the pairs were both gays, which begs a question.

    Did the twin participant questionnaires used in the study ask if the twins were

    raised by one or more gay parent/s? This is significant because children of gay parents

    are 10 times (30%) as likely to be gay as the general population (3%)(Cameron, 1997, 8

    and 9 of 14). In a twin study this is significant because it could cause sample bias. If this

    error is not eliminated from any twin study an implication of genetic causation for

    homosexuality will result; however, it will be a very small implication statistically. For

    example, relate to the 27 pairs of twins and if one parent was gay (I in 33, or 3% would

    be the average), then it is a strong possibility that one of the homosexual pairs could have

    been caused by that factor and it dilutes an already minimal percentage (10%) to a lower

    percentage (7.4%). It is worth noting again that this genetic marker is the same marker

    that causes the 100% match of hair color and many other attributes that motivate the

    researcher to choose a monozygotic twin study for meaningful analysis.

    In a Minnesota Twin Registry study, "A Twin Registry Study of Male and Female

    Sexual Orientation" by Hershberger, this data is analyzed with particular emphasis on the

    monozygotic twins, because this represents an identical gene match (100%). This is

    important for the purpose of the study because it would indicate that the sexuality of the


    continued next post

  5. #415
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    continuation
    one twin has to be exactly the same for the co-twin if genetics causes the sexual

    orientation. As in the Australian study, this is not the case, as this quote from the

    Hershberger study reveals.

    For men, depending on the criterion used, the prevalence of homosexuality

    ranges for 1.06% to 3.24%, with an average of 2.49%; for women, the

    range is from.55% to 2.11%, with an average of 1.68%. If combined with

    bisexuality, the average rises to 4.57% for men and 3.26% for women.

    These rates of homosexuality are very similar to those found in studies

    using probability samples conducted in the United States and elsewhere(4

    of 9 in 2 of 3).

    The Hershberger study also states; "Specifically, significant genetic effects were

    found for self-identified female homosexuality, but not for male homosexuality, in both

    the twin and extended family analyses."(5 of 9 in 2 of 3) The questionnaire used for this

    study is included (6 of 7 and 7 of 7 in 3 of 3), and the question of gay parents is not

    included, causing the same potential flaws as indicated for the Australian study.

    In the case of monozygotic twins, any marker that does not match is the deviation.

    The deviation should be measured against 100%, meaning the further away from 100%

    (which is the expected match), the greater the proof that the factor is not genetic. If twins

    do not have the same eye color, they are not monozygotic, meaning no 100% gene match.

    Does this statement sufficiently dramatize genetic correlation?

    The factual conclusions do not support a link between genetics and

    homosexuality. Many institutions have attempted to stand on high moral ground by

    giving generous interpretations of minimal statistical data implying genetic

    homosexuality. The data should be overwhelming, if true, in a monozygotic twin study,

    most certainly not a minimal statistic. The ABCNEWS.com special, "Nurture, Not

    Nature" concludes that a sense of humor is not genetic (1). Overall happiness: however,

    is genetic as acknowledged by Simonen et al (1998). Asa reminder, referring to Emma

    Wilson's, "Textuality and (homo) Sexuality in Tournier's Les Meteores" to acknowledge

    the psychological inferences, in this case, narcissism, regarding homosexuality might be

    enlightening (9 of 9). The backlash caused by the historical overreaction to

    homosexuality is analogous to affirmative action. Do the words, "too much of a good

    thing," strike a responsive chord here?













    Works Cited

    Alarcon, Maricela, DeFnries, J. C, and Light, Jacquelyn Gillis. "A Twin Study of

    Mathematics Disability Journal ofLearning Disabilities. Nov/Dec 1997. 617-23.

    Cameron, Paul, and Cameron, Kirk. "Did the APA Misrepresent the Scientific Literature

    to Courts in Support of Homosexual Customers Journal of Psychology- May

    1997. 313-32.

    Cameron, Paul, and Cameron, Kirk. "Homosexual Parents". Adolescence. Winter 1996.

    757-76.

    Colt, George Howe. "Were You Born That Way?". Life. April 1998. 38-42.

    Hershberger, Scott L. "A Twin Registry Study of Male and Female Sexual Orientation".

    The Journal of Sex Research. 1997. 212-22.

    Jones, Stanton L. "The Incredibly Shrinking Gay Gene". Christianity Today. Oct. 1999.

    53.

    Shapiro, Joseph P. "Kids With Gay Parents". U.S. News & World Report. Sept. 1996. 75-

    6.

    Simonen, Riitta L, Videman, Tapio, and Battie, Michele C. "The Effect of Lifelong

    Exercise On Psychomotor Reaction Time: a Study of 38 Pair of Male

    Monozygotic Twins. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Sept. 1998.

    1445-50.

    Sloan, Irving J. "Homosexual Conduct and the Law". Ed. Irving J. Sloan. Oceana

    Publications. London/Rome/New York. 1987.

    Viegas, Jennifer. "Nature, Not Nurture". ABCNE WS. com. April 14, 2000.

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/D...morOO0414.html.

    Wilson, Emma. "Textuality and (homo)Sexuality in Tournier's Les Meteores". Romanic

    Review. Jan. 1995. 115-27.

  6. #416
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    This was a research paper I did on the genetics of homosexuality using identical twins for the database. Identical twins have identical DNA ergo if one is homosexual and it is genetic then the other must also be. The research indicates, fairly conclusively, that there is no genetic link to homosexuality.. There is plenty of data to indicate a nurture link to homosexuality but none to link nature to it.

  7. #417
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    There is plenty of data to indicate a nurture link to homosexuality but none to link nature to it.
    Then how do you explain the link between a greater number of older siblings and an increased chance of younger siblings being gay, or that women who are related to homosexuals being more fertile?
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  8. #418
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Right and wrong are completely subjective, however, two things that aren't subjective are the facts that homosexuality is abnormal , and that everyone is abnormal in some way, therefore, the logical conclusion from that is that while something may be abnormal in of itself, being abnormal is completely normal.
    morality is not completely subjectve. the basics of moralitt have been shown to be naturally occuring and exist in animals other than humans.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #419
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Kind of a dumb point. In order to figure out which is the normal route, you have to figure out which was designed into the system to have purpose. Frankly, this entire debate is dumb. Obviously there is nothing correct about having sex with your own gender or otherwise it would do something. I'm not saying it shouldn't be accepted or not, but damn, just shut up and admit what is what.

    Oh and normal=/= natural. If you guys would realize that, it would be great.
    You only think it is dumb because A: you are not gay, and B: you were not raised or conditioned at some point in life to believe the rehtoric of the agenda de jure should be whatever makes you feel good.

    Nature porvides the sampling for normal. The fact that they are not the norm is one reason they argue normal to the point of taunting. This taunt coupled with numerous ilogical examples that seem almost feasable, and any other concievable made to confuse line of thought are thier tools. The made to confuse lines of thought must be how they made any case in court at all. The purponderance on continued and relentless confused thought is used to recrute higher and higher numbers. There are advantages in numbers in more ways than I can concieve of... and lawyers aint cheap.
    Last edited by as if; 05-01-11 at 12:53 PM.
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  10. #420
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    Re: Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by as if View Post
    LOL no, but some do have to note to others that they are gay... when they note they are gay why do they if not to signify sexuality?

    This is the reason I detest at times having to refer to me or most people, the term straight. From what I hear they are a small minority though one would not know it.

    I'm digging for my 1970's hard copy dictionary now... I find I need to see if straight means anything in regard to sexuality... along with gay.
    they are a minority 8-10% of humanity. that doesnt mean they dont exist.

    do you refer to yourself as straight generally, or just in conversations concerning sexual orientation.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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