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Are Gay People "Abnormal"?

Are gay people "abnormal"?

  • Total voters
    91
lpast said:
It was the typical lesbian tatoo so my wife tells me
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My wife just told me she got two..on is a purple star and one is a phoenix or something...Ihavent seen either yet
 
CriticalThought said:
Interesting. So you really do not know whether or not people can choose who they find sexually attractive or arousing?
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But you do?


Why do you choose to define homosexuals by their behavior instead of by how they feel?
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I don't, but one must be taken at their word in regards to feelings. Action's are provable.

Do you believe that the factors of sexual attraction and arousal are irrelevant to a person's sexual identity?
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In fact, I do. There are many things that are learned and cause arousal. In some cases, things that are not even sexual in nature. Perfume, for example.
 
mac said:
But you do?
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I've tried to be heterosexual. It didn't work.

In fact, I do. There are many things that are learned and cause arousal. In some cases, things that are not even sexual in nature. Perfume, for example.
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Wouldn't that be a paraphilia?
 
Jerry said:
I notice because I am, and I further note what kind of pen they're using. Being close to the problems lefties deal with every day makes me sensitive to it. I imagine that if I were right handed, that writing in general would be a non-issue, and I probably might not notice left handers.
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Just found out on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List: Osama bin Laden was a lefty.
 
mac said:
I beleive I allready did. The manner in which someone writes is indicitive of how they think. If they are "putting on airs" I choose to not read them. It's not that I can't read them, its not that I can't get something from the writing...I choose not to read them because I've learned that the way they write is reflective of attitudes I dislike. Attitudes, by the way, that have no direct impact on my life. It's a choice because I could live with, or without it.
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Why do you dislike those attitudes? Please describe in detail how this dislike was/is formed.
 
mac said:
I think pedophilia is still considered a disorder (at least I hope it is). I don't know that the failure of treatment makes it any less a choice though, exfept perhaps if you consider addiction beyond choice. In my view, addiction is a result of choices made....and so is still a choice for this purpose.
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You're doing it again. Confusing a state/preference with a behavior. One can be an addict, but not act or CHOOSE to act on that state.
 
mac said:
Yes.

.......
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That's absurd, mac. You're doing what you did a month ago when you were asked to define "natural". You are not being honest in your debating. We are talking about feelings and desires, things that are inherant or unconscious, things that one cannot control. You are not stupid... you know this. What you are REALLY talking about are behavioral responses to these feelings and/or desires. You are doing this, similar to that past debate, because admitting that one has no choice over their feelings would sink your argument.

Here is the argument in brief:

1) A person has no choice over what they feel. These are unconscious and inherant emotional reactions, and include enjoyment/disgust of certain flavors, smells, sounds, etc...
2) A person has a choice over how they respond to these emotions... or whether they respond at all.
 
Reading this thread makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall.
 
Jerry said:
Folks like myself just make sure we're in a padded room first :peace
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Fortunately, I have free access to padded rooms. :2razz:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You're doing it again. Confusing a state/preference with a behavior. One can be an addict, but not act or CHOOSE to act on that state.
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Oh, I agree, I was closing a loophole.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Why do you dislike those attitudes? Please describe in detail how this dislike was/is formed.
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CC, I'm quite beginning to think that you feel we are not two people having a discussion. It really does appear you consider yourself to be in the role of Professor here.

As I've said before, I believe there are factors affecting all the choices we make and the people we become. Some of these factors are sub-conscious and some are not. Ultimately, though, we have control over the people we become.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
That's absurd, mac. You're doing what you did a month ago when you were asked to define "natural". You are not being honest in your debating.
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That's not true at all, and I am being completely honest about how I think. I don't buy that one has no control over how they feel, further: sub-conscious responses are really learned reactions ingrained to the point where they occur without conscious thought.

We are talking about feelings and desires, things that are inherant or unconscious, things that one cannot control.
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This is absurd. Unless some sort of compulsive disorder is attached, everything that we feel and desire is a result of many hundreds of learned ideas....any of which may be altered along the way.

You are not stupid... you know this.
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Nor are you, from what I've seen.

What you are REALLY talking about are behavioral responses to these feelings and/or desires.
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At times I am, at times I am not. When asked about actions I am, when asked about orientation I am not. I fully understand the difference, I simply do not agree with your position that ones orientation other than normal is beyond ones control.

You are doing this, similar to that past debate, because admitting that one has no choice over their feelings would sink your argument.
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BS, man, sorry.

Here is the argument in brief:

1) A person has no choice over what they feel. These are unconscious and inherant emotional reactions, and include enjoyment/disgust of certain flavors, smells, sounds, etc...
2) A person has a choice over how they respond to these emotions... or whether they respond at all.
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I disagree with 1, and agree with 2.
 
mac said:
CC, I'm quite beginning to think that you feel we are not two people having a discussion. It really does appear you consider yourself to be in the role of Professor here.
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Nope. Just asking you to clarify. You have not yet been able to describe how you choose an emotion, so I am trying to word my questions in such a way as to have you decribe this. You've been dancing around this issue, so I am attempting to word my comments so as you will stop dancing.

As I've said before, I believe there are factors affecting all the choices we make and the people we become. Some of these factors are sub-conscious and some are not. Ultimately, though, we have control over the people we become.
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So, again, you are saying that we have control over how we respond to these emotions/stimulus. Do you believe that we choose these emotions/stimulus?
 
mac said:
That's not true at all, and I am being completely honest about how I think. I don't buy that one has no control over how they feel, further: sub-conscious responses are really learned reactions ingrained to the point where they occur without conscious thought.
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I don't buy it, simply because you have been avoiding the issue. You claim that you can choose your emotions, yet you offer no evidence of this, nor can you describe the process of how an emotion is formed. Describe exactly how you chose to like a food you like. You can describe eating it, deciding that you liked it and wanted to eat it again. You can describe what it is that you like about it. But you cannot descibe how that initial moment of enjoyment is formed. You are dancing around this.



This is absurd. Unless some sort of compulsive disorder is attached, everything that we feel and desire is a result of many hundreds of learned ideas....any of which may be altered along the way.
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No, that is inaccurate. Liking or not liking something, at it's essence is an unconscious impulse. The secondary rationalizations and realizations may be responses to learned behaviors/ideas, but the initial impulse is innate and not something you can control.

Nor are you, from what I've seen.
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This is accurate.

At times I am, at times I am not. When asked about actions I am, when asked about orientation I am not. I fully understand the difference, I simply do not agree with your position that ones orientation other than normal is beyond ones control.
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This does not fall into the morality piece that we are discussing in the other thread. This is not an opinon, but something factual/logical. You have still never been able to prove that either orientation is not a choice and you have been unable to demonstrate any difference between the feelings that one has between the two orientations. Unless you can demonstrate that the process of emotional attachment is different for gays than it is for straights, your opinion on this matter valueless since it has no substantiation and is not logical.



BS, man, sorry.
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Nope. I'm right on target.



I disagree with 1, and agree with 2.
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You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you cannot and have not proven your position. An individual's emotions are innate and not chosen. The response to these emotions can be chosen and altered. This is the issue that you are arguing against and you have been unable to prove that it is incorrect.
 
StillBallin75 said:
which is worse, this or as if in the "is everyone a little bit gay" thread?
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My head hurts.

20 years from now we are all going to be disappointed with society that this kind of discussion even happened.
 
as if said:
To have so much that it would not matter ... and the people would sit in wonder ahhhhhh
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:) that's my goal. 50%, perhaps, though we will see.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Nope. Just asking you to clarify. You have not yet been able to describe how you choose an emotion, so I am trying to word my questions in such a way as to have you decribe this. You've been dancing around this issue, so I am attempting to word my comments so as you will stop dancing.



So, again, you are saying that we have control over how we respond to these emotions/stimulus. Do you believe that we choose these emotions/stimulus?
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I believe we do, but over a much longer period of time. Every emotion we have other than the primal ones, result from thousands of "micro choices" throughout our lives. Because one doesn't think much about a choice, doesn't mean a conscious choice wasn't made. At the very minimum, we (as intelligent creatures) not only have control over how we deal with our emotions, but also how our emotions are instigated. This is why some people "fly off the handle" and some do not.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I don't buy it, simply because you have been avoiding the issue. You claim that you can choose your emotions, yet you offer no evidence of this, nor can you describe the process of how an emotion is formed. Describe exactly how you chose to like a food you like. You can describe eating it, deciding that you liked it and wanted to eat it again. You can describe what it is that you like about it. But you cannot descibe how that initial moment of enjoyment is formed. You are dancing around this.
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Simply put, you don't have to "buy it". It may very well be your impression that I am "dancing around" the issue, but I think it's more that in not being a trained psychologist, I'm not putting it in words you understand. You might try stepping away from your title for a minute and looking at it fresh.

No, that is inaccurate. Liking or not liking something, at it's essence is an unconscious impulse. The secondary rationalizations and realizations may be responses to learned behaviors/ideas, but the initial impulse is innate and not something you can control.
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Please describe in detail the difference between an innate response and a compulsive response, then please tell me why compulsive disorders are not simply normal innate responses.

This is accurate.
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redacted. :)

This does not fall into the morality piece that we are discussing in the other thread. This is not an opinon, but something factual/logical. You have still never been able to prove that either orientation is not a choice and you have been unable to demonstrate any difference between the feelings that one has between the two orientations. Unless you can demonstrate that the process of emotional attachment is different for gays than it is for straights, your opinion on this matter valueless since it has no substantiation and is not logical.
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Nor have you or anyone been able to prove that orientation other than normal is anything other than a choice. I fully admit and understand that I am not a clinical or reserach pshycologist...however, not legitimate clinical or research psychologist (or any other Dr.) has been able to prove it beyond "it may be the result of"

Nope. I'm right on target.
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No you're not, except perhaps you're right that agreeing to your perspective would sink my argument. The problem is, I don't agree with your perspective. If you weren't so convinced in your own perspective, you'd see that difference.

You can disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you cannot and have not proven your position. An individual's emotions are innate and not chosen. The response to these emotions can be chosen and altered. This is the issue that you are arguing against and you have been unable to prove that it is incorrect.
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Nor have you, I'm afraid it boils down to a difference of opinion. You know full well you can not prove that orientation is anything other than choice, just like I can't prove it is.
 
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mac said:
I believe we do, but over a much longer period of time. Every emotion we have other than the primal ones, result from thousands of "micro choices" throughout our lives. Because one doesn't think much about a choice, doesn't mean a conscious choice wasn't made. At the very minimum, we (as intelligent creatures) not only have control over how we deal with our emotions, but also how our emotions are instigated. This is why some people "fly off the handle" and some do not.
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What lead you to the conclusion that homosexuality is chosen while heterosexuality is not?
 
theplaydrive said:
What lead you to the conclusion that homosexuality is chosen while heterosexuality is not?
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Heterosexuality is the main and normal orientation of the human species and has obvious benifits to our species.
 
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