View Poll Results: Is it OK for Blacks to Bash Whites for Comedy Purposes?

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Thread: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

  1. #351
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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Did you notice that in my response to you, I critiqued your argument and your argument only. The only thing you could manage to do was personally attack me through sarcasm. It's never a good sign when the only response you have to another person's point is a personal attack.

    I'll say it again: Hispanic isn't a race according to the government. Therefore, your example about "race-related" diseases is flawed because you used a group of people that is NOT considered a race by the very organization you claim is "reaching out to racial groups". This has two implications: First, race is not as clear cut as you try to make it seem as evidenced by the fact you consider Hispanic a race and the government doesn't. Second, the differences in susceptibility to diseases that you listed with black vs. Hispanic women are NOT race-related differences.
    If the US Government decided to call Asian-Americans by an ethnic identifier, say Continentals, meaning the continent of Asia, and they included South Asian alongside East Asians, in this new category, then that doesn't remove the racial structure of these two groups.

    Now, if the US population mix between the two groups was 20:1 in favor of East Asians compared to South Asians, then the use of the category "Continental" would capture Asian Americans almost as accurately as though they were racially sorted into that group.

    We don't have many Yugoslavian or Italian Argentines being classed as Hispanics in the US - what we have a lot of is Central American Mestizos and Caribbean Mulattos, both of whom share ancestry with Caribbean/Central American AmerIndians.

    The fact that the US made a social decision on how to define Hispanics - grouping Mestizos, Mulattos, White Argentines, Native Spainairds, White Cubans, etc into a cultural group doesn't mean that the cultural group "Hispanics" connotes no racial information. Now that could certainly change if the US population of Hispanics became evenly divided between Mestizos, Mulattos, White Argentines, Native Spainairds, White Cubans and so on such that the social category of Hispanic became completely divorced from any underlying genetic basis. That would be a prime example of a socially determined identity - what common feature do all of these categories of people have in common? The government calls them Hispanic and that is their new socially created group.

  2. #352
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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The fact that the US made a social decision on how to define Hispanics - grouping Mestizos, Mulattos, White Argentines, Native Spainairds, White Cubans, etc into a cultural group doesn't mean that the cultural group "Hispanics" connotes no racial information. Now that could certainly change if the US population of Hispanics became evenly divided between Mestizos, Mulattos, White Argentines, Native Spainairds, White Cubans and so on such that the social category of Hispanic became completely divorced from any underlying genetic basis. That would be a prime example of a socially determined identity - what common feature do all of these categories of people have in common? The government calls them Hispanic and that is their new socially created group.
    That's all good and well, but none of this changes the flaws of your original post.

    First, you want to make it seem as if race is a concrete category, but it isn't. Your use of Hispanic as a race coupled with the government's belief that Hispanic is not a race illustrates this.

    Second, you try to validate your perception of race by pointing to the presence of biologically race-related illnesses. However, your evidence is an example of ethnicity + race related illnesses, not of race-related illnesses. Hispanic is not considered a race. Moreover, you make the mistake of assuming that such illnesses are related to biological differences when, in fact, they may be related to environmental or lifestyle differences.

    Bottom lines: Your own post shows that racial categories are not clear cut and the illnesses you mention are ethnic/racial/environmental illnesses not simply "biologically race-related illnesses". Calling them the latter both simplifies and distorts the definition of "race" the government uses and the potential causes of such diseases.

    I think most people's critiques of your arguments come down to the fact that race is not a biologically concrete grouping so much so that the vulnerability to illnesses you mentioned are not even broken down into exclusively racial categories. Sure, we can trace ancestry and draw conclusions based on that information but that alone does not constitute race. Race is a social construction. Nature doesn't care about the one drop rule - people do and the fact that someone who is 7/8 European and 1/8 African can be considered "black" while a genetic test would show him to be overwhelming "not black" is an illustration that races are not a biologically discrete categories.

  3. #353
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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The boundaries between colors are also arbitrarily defined. Does that mean that the color yellow doesn't convey information when referenced?
    In scientific term no. Scientists study wavelength of light.


    Your argument borders on tautology. You refer to race a s social construct and then detail a situation where the researchers inputs this piece of socially constructed knowledge into a model and out comes the correlation. The whole notion of social construction is that it is divorced from any physical reality. If tomorrow we decided that every liberal would hence forth be socially classified as black and every conservatives would henceforth be socially classified as white, then the breast cancer model would lose all predictive value because when the researcher input "black" as the race of the woman who was being tested the model wouldn't be referencing any real genetic basis.
    Depending on the correlation between the "black" and "white" group to the "liberal" and "conservative" group. And that's the point of my post, the model only has meaning according to the inputs by the modeller. If I put in "poor" and "middle class" in the place of "black" and "white", or "in jail" and "not in jail", any number of combination actually - I would probably see a relationship even though the proxies for the genetic mutation are different. The only true relationship that won't change is the causal relationship between the genetic mutation and the cancer growth as a result. If I could transfer this genetic mutation from the black population without changing other other genes in that population, into the white population, the relationship between the mutation and the cancer will remain the same even though the relationship between the cancer and the "race" proxy has changed.


    So clearly, when researchers are inputting a socially derived classification of black into the diagnostic model that socially derived racially classification is a.) outputting useful data from the model, and b.) the social classification is capturing the real genetic basis of race.
    It doesn't say anything of the sort. It simply says that there is a statistical correlation. I can "output useful data" using other variables (say close relative with said disease), and pinpoint the "at risk" population much better than just "race" alone. The only way to capture "real genetic basis" is to study the genes itself. Anything else are statistical proxies and not true causal relationships.
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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by TDZ View Post
    We see it on TV and in the movies everyday. A black comedian or a black sitcom or a black movie. They move directly into bashing on whites, calling them honkies, crackers and other derogatory terms. Often times they'll have whites appear to be ignorant about the world around them and so on.

    They're are even stations, BET, that tailor a large segment of their broadcasts are directed right at this type of comedy.

    So, should this be allowed or is this another type of racism? Should whites be allowed to launch all white networks, such as WET, that target their jokes towards blacks?

    Keep in mind, blacks use the term "cracker" and "honkie" (recently heard Kid Rock use Honkie) all the time, when's the last time you heard a modern movie where a white used the "N" word?
    As a white man, I find a lot of black-on-white racial jokes incredibly funny. And I LOL right along with them.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Blacks in the USA were enslaved, raped, tortured, beaten, castrated, burned, harrassed, terrorized, experimented on, segregated, discriminated against, etc etc etc....

    so yes, there is gonna be a double-standard for a while.

  6. #356
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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    That's all good and well, but none of this changes the flaws of your original post.

    First, you want to make it seem as if race is a concrete category, but it isn't. Your use of Hispanic as a race coupled with the government's belief that Hispanic is not a race illustrates this.

    Second, you try to validate your perception of race by pointing to the presence of biologically race-related illnesses. However, your evidence is an example of ethnicity + race related illnesses, not of race-related illnesses. Hispanic is not considered a race. Moreover, you make the mistake of assuming that such illnesses are related to biological differences when, in fact, they may be related to environmental or lifestyle differences.

    Bottom lines: Your own post shows that racial categories are not clear cut and the illnesses you mention are ethnic/racial/environmental illnesses not simply "biologically race-related illnesses". Calling them the latter both simplifies and distorts the definition of "race" the government uses and the potential causes of such diseases.

    I think most people's critiques of your arguments come down to the fact that race is not a biologically concrete grouping so much so that the vulnerability to illnesses you mentioned are not even broken down into exclusively racial categories. Sure, we can trace ancestry and draw conclusions based on that information but that alone does not constitute race. Race is a social construction. Nature doesn't care about the one drop rule - people do and the fact that someone who is 7/8 European and 1/8 African can be considered "black" while a genetic test would show him to be overwhelming "not black" is an illustration that races are not a biologically discrete categories.
    The concept is a solid one- if imperfect.
    Use 'indigenous populations' as NatGeo does if you're squeamish/PC.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...post1058887644

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    ....
    A NatGeo study started in 2005 Genographic Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seeks to map migrations of all people from 11 indigenous populations.. call them ethnicities if you like (even 'races'). But people/s Are traceable through their genes.

    Perhaps 'English' isn't an Ethnicity but ie, Jews are. 40% of Jews can be traced to just 4 Middle Eastern women, and virtually all the rest from another 150. I think that qualifies as 'common ancestry'.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 11:21 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    The concept is a solid one- if imperfect.
    Use 'indigenous populations' as NatGeo does if you're squeamish/PC.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...post1058887644
    You're talking about ethnicity and ancestry; I'm talking about race.

    Race is not a "solid concept". Nobody is denying that people's ancestry can be traced with their genes. I am denying that race is a clear cut concept. It isn't. Moreover, NG doesn't use "indigenous populations" in order to be PC, it uses that term because it's a specific term to denote a particular reality - populations indigenous to a particular place. Some people may call them races, others wouldn't - such is the SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED nature of race.

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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You're talking about ethnicity and ancestry; I'm talking about race.

    Race is not a "solid concept". Nobody is denying that people's ancestry can be traced with their genes. I am denying that race is a clear cut concept. It isn't. Moreover, NG doesn't use "indigenous populations" in order to be PC, it uses that term because it's a specific term to denote a particular reality - populations indigenous to a particular place. Some people may call them races, others wouldn't - such is the SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED nature of race.
    I think we can assume "Indigenous Populations" are genetically Distinct and homogenous enough to call them whatever you like, Ethnicity, Race, etc.
    That is the Point of the study.
    Using 11 Genetically Identifiable Base populations.
    You can use any word that makes you happy.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    I think we can assume "Indigenous Populations" are genetically Distinct and homogenous enough to call them whatever you like, Ethnicity, Race, etc.
    That is the Point of the study.
    Using 11 Genetically Identifiable Base populations.
    You can use any word that makes you happy.
    Okay, none of this has any effect on the point that I've been making: race is not a biologically concrete grouping.

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    Re: Is it Ok for Black Comedians to Bash Whites?

    answer to the OP:

    yes, but everything in moderation.

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