View Poll Results: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

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Thread: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    -- Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?
    No because they are wards of the state meaning the state is responsible. I support the state going after the proceeds of crime and similar funds if gained through crime though.

  2. #42
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Why should taxpayers have to pay for O.J. Simpson's incarceration? Martha Stewart's? Your own when you're thrown in jail for drunk driving? I say that if one has personal assets to cover their own incarceration costs, that should be part of the punishment. If they don't have the assets, no harm. But why should taxpayers pay to incarcerate someone who's broken the law?

    Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?
    make a mo fo pay rent on his cell.
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    No because they are wards of the state meaning the state is responsible. I support the state going after the proceeds of crime and similar funds if gained through crime though.
    I think that too needs to be restricted because it can be used for property theft pretty easily. It's pretty much what goes on with drug crimes, they'll take anything they can and I'm not sure the carte blanch property confiscation is necessarily good things. And you have to make sure people aren't outright stealing.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Why should taxpayers have to pay for O.J. Simpson's incarceration? Martha Stewart's? Your own when you're thrown in jail for drunk driving? I say that if one has personal assets to cover their own incarceration costs, that should be part of the punishment. If they don't have the assets, no harm. But why should taxpayers pay to incarcerate someone who's broken the law?

    Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?
    No way. People should not have to pay for their own incarceration. Most laws are bad to begin with. We don't need to give the justice system even more of a reason to imprison people - to take assets they may have paid with via honest money.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The trunk mostly works as it did before. Gotta slam it sometimes to make it latch though. The back bumper wasn't in bad condition when it hit. But these sorts of things when damaged are typically bought from a general provider and thus you never find a bumper which is scratched up less you are going to spend extra money in search through a junk yard. If you were being intellectually honest, you would understand why you aren't providing actual argument for "milking" the system. Had I claimed my front dash was the result of the accident and had them replace that; then there would be argument since I would have lied about it in order to get more than that which was damaged. But my trunk and bumper were damaged, and the trunk and bumper were what was fixed and charged to the person's insurance. Plain and simple.

    Stealing is money taken in force. You forcibly take money from someone after you forcibly sent them to the place you are now trying to charge them rent for. The services provided are services which are to be provided by the tax payer and we are taxes accordingly. It's a bit insane. Not only so, but you give government profit for throwing people in jail; which is not really a circumstance we should have. You are using government force to remove money from people they earned through their labor. You try to justify it by saying they were in jail and had to pay that. But we put them there, we used force to do so. You can't then say that they have to pay you for it. It's like kidnapping someone and expecting that they pay your rent while they stay bound up in your basement. We have to be careful with the forms of government force we authorize and how much we allow them to take and for what reasons they get to take it. It's all part and parcel with a constrained government. You can't throw people into jail then demand that they pay for it and then if they can't say "that's ok, just get a job when you get out and we'll charge you interest on this and make you pay more for having been thrown in jail".

    There are reasonable uses of force, and unreasonable uses of force. Stealing money from people you put into jail is not reasonable. It's not rent, they didn't get a rental contract and agree to it. They were thrown in jail through the use of government force. You can't then charge them for that. Not only is it morally questionable, but it adds incentive to the State for throwing people into jail which shouldn't exist. Their only concern should be justice and proper punishment; nothing more.
    Let's take your rental contract scenario here Ikari. When did we sign a contract stating that we would not rape, pillage or plunder? Can you point out to me the contract that says we will go to prison for it if we do those things? Curious where this contract is since you bring it up.

    Oh, there isn't one is there. That's because it's called the "Law" and it's written down and enforced after being passed by either our elected officials or a majority vote on a public ballot. Pretty simple concept actually.

    Now, if they pass a law that says everyone convicted after such and such date will have to pay rent while they are incarcerated for a crime they are convicted of, then that is the law. People know before hand that they will have to pay if they break the law and as such are subject to said law. No rental contract needed.

    As far as your concept of theft goes, since it's beyond your cerebral comprehension skills to get it, let's try looking at it another way.

    Let's say that guy who rear ended you did not have insurance and you had to take him to court to get him to pay. Obtain judgement and he still doesn't want to pay. You discover where he works and garnish his check. Are you stealing?

    Come on Ikari, are you stealing?

  6. #46
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TDZ View Post
    Let's take your rental contract scenario here Ikari. When did we sign a contract stating that we would not rape, pillage or plunder? Can you point out to me the contract that says we will go to prison for it if we do those things? Curious where this contract is since you bring it up.

    Oh, there isn't one is there. That's because it's called the "Law" and it's written down and enforced after being passed by either our elected officials or a majority vote on a public ballot. Pretty simple concept actually.

    Now, if they pass a law that says everyone convicted after such and such date will have to pay rent while they are incarcerated for a crime they are convicted of, then that is the law. People know before hand that they will have to pay if they break the law and as such are subject to said law. No rental contract needed.

    As far as your concept of theft goes, since it's beyond your cerebral comprehension skills to get it, let's try looking at it another way.

    Let's say that guy who rear ended you did not have insurance and you had to take him to court to get him to pay. Obtain judgement and he still doesn't want to pay. You discover where he works and garnish his check. Are you stealing?

    Come on Ikari, are you stealing?
    The contract is the Constitution which establishes the government. It authorizes it, though limited, to create law and work for the rights and liberties of the individual. All government obtains legitimacy through the consent of the governed. You agree to the Constitution, the limited powers granted to the government, and the government created by it by not revolting. That is the agreement, we established the government and allow it to operate so long as it does so within the boundaries of the Constitution. Should it no longer serve that purpose, it is our right and duty to do away with it and create a new government. That's the contract. There is no contract for people in jail because they are put there involuntarily. We force them there for our sake.

    By your logic the government can say that everyone arrested after such and such a date will not have access to public attorneys, that would be fine and dandy to you as well. But the key here really is that the government is only given restricted powers; there are things it cannot do. There are proper ways to use its force against others, and improper ways to do so. The fact is as soon as we convict a criminal and send him to jail, he's our responsibility; ward of the State. We sent him there, we used force to do so, and thus we have to support him while in his time out. That's the way it is. There cannot be incentive for the government to have more and more people in jail. If they make profit off of it, there is a clear conflict of interest and justice suffers. But that seems to be beyond your cerebral comprehensions skills to get.

    As for your example, it could be seen as an example of legalized theft. I'm would be using government force against another individual. However, there is contract when you accept your drivers license, and part of that (for better or worse) is the legal obligation for one to obtain insurance. If one does not, they have broken the law; to which government force can now be applied. It would be reasonable and proper force up to restitution, and unreasonable and improper afterward. But this is all in some form of car accident. The real thing here is that you want to try to twist things around and engage in intellectually dishonest debate to make your position seem more favorable. Well that's fine, it's a free country. But a car accident wherein there are requirements for insurance in order to pay restitution in case you cause an accident, and charging criminals you throw into jail rent are two very different things. You don't agree to pay rent while in jail, in fact it's absurd to think that it's ok to do so. Who sets the rent? What's the "interest rate" once someone gets out? Do you account for the fact that you've pretty much made it impossible for some criminals to obtain jobs right off the bat, and what they will be paid is too low to be able to pay back rent on jail? Are you going to throw them in jail again if they can't pay and charge them for rent again? Can you honestly, with all your smarmy condescending tone pretending you're intellectually superior, not see the problem and conflict of interest in that?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #47
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    What Amendment is that again that deals with debtor' prisons? I'll let you look it up.

    Now, one more time, to help you out here Ikari, I realize this is really difficult for you to follow, but you need to concentrate real hard. Read it slowly:

    If it is part of the law, then the law is what is ordering them to pay rent.

    Now, in many places across the United States they already charge inmates for jail. When an inmate is booked into any jail they are given an "indigency kit" that contains things like toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, shampoo and such. If they have money to pay for it then they pay for it. If they are truly indigent with no funds then they get it for free (not really, there is a bill awaiting them if they ever come back) and that is that.

    As far as them agreeing to it goes, in addition. If it's part of the law and they break the law then they are agreeing to it by their actions. It's their problem to pay the bill. What do I care if they can't find a decent paying job or not, it's not my problem. I did not break the law, I did not get myself sentenced to jail, I did exactly what society has expected of me. I grew up, went to college, got married, had kids and yes I even opened my own company and I ensure the continued employment of several individuals at a decent salary through the hard work of all of us.

    So tell me, how is it my problem that a whiney little pervert kiddie diddler or a theif or a junkie or whatever can't find a job? What do I care if he lives on the street? My employees and I pay our bills, we do what were supposed to do. That's how it works.

    You say they are a ward of the state and forced into prison. Your 100% wrong. No one forces anyone into prison for a criminal act. They choose to go to prison voluntarily by the actions they have committed. If you don't like prison and feel like you've been forced there, then let me give you a news flash Ikari:

    Don't break the law and you won't go to prison!

    The rest of the world knows that one. I stand by my opinion that all who break the law and are convicted of breaking the law need to pay rent, food, security and so on to the prison institution that they are incarcerated in. If they can not pay this while they are in then they need to start paying it once they get out. As far as the amount goes, whatever it cost to keep them there and the interest can be governed using T-Bills as an Index with a modest margin on them for example.

  8. #48
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Listen up, one more time, to help you out here TDZ. I realize this is really difficult for you to follow, but you need to concentrate real hard. Read it slowly:

    The government is limited in the type of force it can use against the individual. Prisoners are wards of the State because we have put them there through due process of law. The government cannot make any law it wants, and then that's the end all be all. A law must be Constitutional and use only the power granted to the government.

    But hey, I'm glad you avoided all my questions; shows exactly how principled and how much integrity you actually have. Good job with your intellectually lazy and dishonest form of debate.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #49
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Listen up, one more time, to help you out here TDZ. I realize this is really difficult for you to follow, but you need to concentrate real hard. Read it slowly:

    The government is limited in the type of force it can use against the individual. Prisoners are wards of the State because we have put them there through due process of law. The government cannot make any law it wants, and then that's the end all be all. A law must be Constitutional and use only the power granted to the government.

    But hey, I'm glad you avoided all my questions; shows exactly how principled and how much integrity you actually have. Good job with your intellectually lazy and dishonest form of debate.
    How long have you been in solitary confinement now Ikari? Way to long it appears. Since at least the '90's jails have been chargining convicted inmates for their stays. It is Constitutional to charge them. Your the one swearing that the gov't will just put everyone in jail to make money, go look at your previous posts if you've forgotten already.

    And while people may be in jail via due process of the law, it is still a fact that were it not for their own actions they would not be in jail. IE: Don't break the law and you don't go to jail. Thereby if your in jail you put yourself in jail, not the cops, not the prosecutor, not the jury and not the judge. You! It's called taking responsibility for YOUR actions.

    Do we need to have a discussion on how a sense of entitlement is guaranteed to lead you to a life of failure too?

  10. #50
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    Re: Should people in jail have to pay for their incarceration if they have the means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TDZ View Post
    How long have you been in solitary confinement now Ikari? Way to long it appears. Since at least the '90's jails have been chargining convicted inmates for their stays. It is Constitutional to charge them. Your the one swearing that the gov't will just put everyone in jail to make money, go look at your previous posts if you've forgotten already.

    And while people may be in jail via due process of the law, it is still a fact that were it not for their own actions they would not be in jail. IE: Don't break the law and you don't go to jail. Thereby if your in jail you put yourself in jail, not the cops, not the prosecutor, not the jury and not the judge. You! It's called taking responsibility for YOUR actions.

    Do we need to have a discussion on how a sense of entitlement is guaranteed to lead you to a life of failure too?
    So you can't address questions, all you can do is insult and deflect eh? Well internet's full of folk like you.

    You want to say that government won't put people away if they can profit. We have the HIGHEST incarceration rate of all the industrialized countries. 1/5 adults will be in jail at some point. You didn't do anything for your case.

    You can talk about entitlement, but I'm not the one that feels entitled to another man's property if said individual broke the law. Before you run off at your mouth you may want to spend some time and think about what you're saying. I know it's hard man, but you should do it as a matter of practice. Helps to avoid putting your foot in your mouth.
    Last edited by Ikari; 04-25-11 at 11:03 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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