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  • It helps the economy.

    12 34.29%
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Thread: Government stimulus

  1. #71
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Or sometimes one or the other.

    I mean the whole idea that government spending doesn't create jobs is simply, obviously, not true.

    We sit here fighting about whether government spending creates jobs on the internet, which was born in the military, paid for by govt.

    Microwave ovens, microcircuitry, velcro, lots of things that we take for granted were born under government contract.

    Private enterprise commodified them and brought them to market, but govt gave the grants to the universities/companies that made the core discoveries.

    We have complex problems that are going to require complex solutions.

    Reductionist arguments are not going to help us solve anything.

    Maybe its time the people figured out what to do amongst ourselves and then told the govt what we want them to do.

    But that means a genuine exchange of ideas.

    Which for some reason seems possible here lately.
    People discovered these things, not the government.
    What you are failing to see is that the money could of better been spent on something more productive.

    By the way, the internet was already invented in concept form by Nikoli Tesla and the telegraph was an early internet.

    Government can create jobs, but not with any efficiency.
    It must take or borrow the money, which is inherently inefficient, so the loss of productivity with the money is already in the negative before the first dollar is spent.

    So in total, the government can create jobs but it does harm the economy in the long run.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    People discovered these things, not the government.
    What you are failing to see is that the money could of better been spent on something more productive.

    By the way, the internet was already invented in concept form by Nikoli Tesla and the telegraph was an early internet.

    Government can create jobs, but not with any efficiency.
    It must take or borrow the money, which is inherently inefficient, so the loss of productivity with the money is already in the negative before the first dollar is spent.

    So in total, the government can create jobs but it does harm the economy in the long run.
    If US taxpayers don't continue to wage war in the ME to keep the oil flowing so the oil companies can continue to keep raking us over the barrel how will you continue to afford the gasoline for your car, that you claimed in another thread was the answer to peak oil in our own country?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #73
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If US taxpayers don't continue to wage war in the ME to keep the oil flowing so the oil companies can continue to keep raking us over the barrel how will you continue to afford the gasoline for your car, that you claimed in another thread was the answer to peak oil in our own country?
    I don't care for war in other countries.
    I much prefer trade.

    No one is being raked over a barrel, you can always buy an electric car.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #74
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    Re: Government stimulus

    The U.S. has the largest Oil Reserves in the World.


    how about this for a solution. maybe we should, oh, i dunno, create jobs here in America by tapping our own natural resources, just like we expect everyone else to do.

  5. #75
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    People discovered these things, not the government.
    What you are failing to see is that the money could of better been spent on something more productive.

    By the way, the internet was already invented in concept form by Nikoli Tesla and the telegraph was an early internet.

    Government can create jobs, but not with any efficiency.
    It must take or borrow the money, which is inherently inefficient, so the loss of productivity with the money is already in the negative before the first dollar is spent.

    So in total, the government can create jobs but it does harm the economy in the long run.
    I was speaking more in relative terms regarding excessive absolutes in our discussions.

    I understand where you're coming from and often agree with you to some degree.

    I'm just trying to point out where the disconnects are occurring between the two basic ideologies here.

    And what I'm seeing is a rejection by the left of some on the rights insistence on black and white statements, while acknowledging their point to some extent.

    And a refusal to concede anything by some on the right, accompanied by derision at the inability of the lefties to grasp what they are being told.

    And almost always it seems that those on the left say something like"Yes, but you also have to take this into account". At which point the original argument is repeated as if the leftie didn't understand the first time. Leftie tries again, often making every apparent effort to communicate, only to be flatly rejected. And ridiculed. Round and round.

    I get excessively combative, because it seems obvious we have to find common ground to deal with the real problems we're facing, and "our way or the highway" is too often the refrain from the right.

    So I mention govt funded research as a counter to the absolute, "government doesn't create jobs", because government funding does often lead to job creation.

    And while business often can do things more efficiently than govt, it won't do some things because they are not profitable enough, or the research is inherently too expensive. Thats where govt can play a role.

    I would really like to see a little more qualification of statements.

    "A is a result of B" is a much harder starting point than "A is primarily a result of B"

    Absolutes are starting positions for politicians, not discussions.

    And compromise isn't defeat. In fact, at this point in time, refusal to consider compromise may cost us a great deal.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  6. #76
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The U.S. has the largest Oil Reserves in the World.


    how about this for a solution. maybe we should, oh, i dunno, create jobs here in America by tapping our own natural resources, just like we expect everyone else to do.
    That represents 3.65 billion gallons of recoverable oil. We currently import that much in one year!
    snopes.com: Bakken Formation

    That is your solution???
    Last edited by Catawba; 04-25-11 at 06:12 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #77
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't care for war in other countries.
    I much prefer trade.

    No one is being raked over a barrel, you can always buy an electric car.
    If one can afford it, that's great! Too bad the military didn't think of that before they issued their warning last year on peak oil. Or before, we invaded Iraq to make it safe for the return of Western oil for the first time in over 3 decades.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #78
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I was speaking more in relative terms regarding excessive absolutes in our discussions.

    I understand where you're coming from and often agree with you to some degree.

    I'm just trying to point out where the disconnects are occurring between the two basic ideologies here.

    And what I'm seeing is a rejection by the left of some on the rights insistence on black and white statements, while acknowledging their point to some extent.

    And a refusal to concede anything by some on the right, accompanied by derision at the inability of the lefties to grasp what they are being told.

    And almost always it seems that those on the left say something like"Yes, but you also have to take this into account". At which point the original argument is repeated as if the leftie didn't understand the first time. Leftie tries again, often making every apparent effort to communicate, only to be flatly rejected. And ridiculed. Round and round.

    I get excessively combative, because it seems obvious we have to find common ground to deal with the real problems we're facing, and "our way or the highway" is too often the refrain from the right.

    So I mention govt funded research as a counter to the absolute, "government doesn't create jobs", because government funding does often lead to job creation.

    And while business often can do things more efficiently than govt, it won't do some things because they are not profitable enough, or the research is inherently too expensive. Thats where govt can play a role.

    I would really like to see a little more qualification of statements.

    "A is a result of B" is a much harder starting point than "A is primarily a result of B"

    Absolutes are starting positions for politicians, not discussions.

    And compromise isn't defeat. In fact, at this point in time, refusal to consider compromise may cost us a great deal.
    There are some absolutes in this world in my opinion.

    One of which, is that government is terrible when it comes to influencing the economy.

    When it comes to research, most of the government funding is crowding out the private investment.
    You'll see that prior to research grants and the like, that people as independents were creating things left and right.
    People who had no formal education in the fields they created in, notable example is Samuel Morse.

    He was a painter, that only became interested in near instant communications, when his wife became ill and by the time he reached her she died.
    He wanted to solve the problem of delayed information transmitting.

    We don't see this anymore and assume all important research should come from XYZ university funded by government ABC grant.

    I think Hayak best explains this with, "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men, how little they really know about what they can imagine, they can design."

    It's why I'll always be a free markets guy, it makes much more sense logically.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #79
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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That represents 3.65 billion gallons of recoverable oil. We currently import that much in one year!
    snopes.com: Bakken Formation

    That is your solution???
    Bakken is one formation; according to your own link another such (the Green River) has been estimated at about 1.5 Trillion; though only 800Bn was estimated to be recoverable. and on top of that we also need to open up our West Coast, Alaska, near waters in the Gulf, and the East Coast to drilling. in addition, we need to allow the building of more refineries.

    we are the only nation currently stupid enough not to tap our own natural resources, and it is costing us. we have huge untapped resources here, and in a time seemingly laggardly growth for the next decade plus high unemployment and rising energy prices, it makes no sense not to engage in an activity that would help with all three of those problems.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-25-11 at 06:32 AM.

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    Re: Government stimulus

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, obviously not true. However, the driving force for employment is not tax rates, but demand for products and services. A hypothetical company with enough employees to meet demand but a large profit is not going to hire more employees, while a company that is losing money but not able to meet demand will probably perforce still have to hire more employees. Neither situation is entirely likely, and the second one is in fact fairly uncommon, however they illustrate the point. Please do not read more into my words than what I am actually saying.
    I don't see how this is an argument for higher tax rates. I'm not going to disagree that tax rates are not the driving force for businesses hiring employees or making other improvements to their business. What I'm arguing is that it sometimes prevents companies from doing something to make themselves more competitive, especially in a hostile economy in which we currently reside. It's like high gas prices. People will still put enough gas in their car for endeavors they view as necessary such as work, school, and possibly church, but you're not going to see someone who is barely able to fill their tank buying a new car or house anytime soon. On the same note, businesses who are barely making it aren't going to make improvements with high tax rates, they're just going to do what they have to in order to survive.

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