View Poll Results: Would you vote for Herman Cain for president?

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Thread: Herman Cain for president?

  1. #611
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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so.... no, you actually know very little about Islam, which is why you can't respond.

    Yup. That's about what I figured.
    thats it keep making stuff up, try to deflect, it wont work with anybody objective and smart though LMAO Ive responded numerous time and you come back with nothing each time you have showed how foolish you are, its ok its often what people do to hide their ignorance and or bigotry.
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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    nothing I mentioned to you was made up. I have studied Islam now at the undergraduate and graduate level. I have analyzed different portions of their religious-political structure professionally in my work. Many moons ago I used to speak basic pidgin Arabic - nothing fancy, just your basic directions, asking for food, the stuff I needed for little interactions combined with the usual gesturing. I spent a year and a half on a forum dedicated to Shia Muslims - as I don't speak Farsi and was limited to the English forums, it was about half Iranian and about half second-generation Canadian diaspora. There is nothing bigoted or ignorant in the claim that Islam inherently is political just as it is religious, and see's no rightful distinction between the two. All of the mainstream schools of thought would back me up in this. I can say without a doubt that this is the historical consensus of the Ummah. You, on the other hand, would have to look up what the Ummah was.

    But I'll bite since you know so much about Islam, perhaps you can tell me which of the three main Schools has come out and declared that Government can rightly be a secular institution.

  3. #613
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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    But I'll bite since you know so much about Islam, perhaps you can tell me which of the three main Schools has come out and declared that Government can rightly be a secular institution.
    Are we discounting Muʿtazilah?

    Because then I don't know.

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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    I was referencing the main schools. Hanafi, for example.



    But I had never looked into these guys - usually in discussions of Ali the traditional histories move straight into the Split into the developing Umayyads v the Shia. Interesting stuff. However:

    Quote Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Britannica Online
    ...First, they stressed the absolute unity or oneness (tawḥīd) of God. From this it was logically concluded that the Qurʾān could not be technically considered the word of God...
    I would say that this pretty solidly places them outside of mainstream Islamic thought. Though I am unable to find a discussion of their arguing for secular governance. If you could direct me, I would be appreciative.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-26-11 at 02:04 AM.

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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    But I thought Hanafi was a jurisprudence school specifically within Sunni Islam. And there are four of those: Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shafi'i. Did you mean among those four?

    It's probably not Hanbali, since Hanbali is conservative.


    I would say that this pretty solidly places them outside of mainstream Islamic thought. Though I am unable to find a discussion of their arguing for secular governance. If you could direct me, I would be appreciative.
    Yeah, I gotcha.

    http://wn.com/Mu'tazila

    It's not them literally arguing, but it's a decent summary. And yes I realize they are outside the mainstream schools of thought, which is why I asked if we were discounting them in guessing which school accepted separation of church and state.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 05-26-11 at 02:23 AM.

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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Interesting, I've seen them described as three - as I recall they rolled two of those together? I want to say Shafi was rolled into one of the others (Maliki?)... but dangit, and I imposed the no-google searching rule

    Damn you, I'm an ocean away from my books and now I'm forgetting things I officially turn over this butt-whomping to you, my obviously more educated contemporary.

    But no, as far as I'm aware none of the main schools schools have called for secular government. That was the point I was trying to raise to Centrist - that not a single major branch of Islamic teaching agreed with his claims, the profligate use of emoticons nonwithstanding.

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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that would be Jesus drawing the difference between taxes and charity with the Give unto Caesar what is Caesars' line.

    See, in Islam, the State is supposed to collect a mandatory religious tax for charity. It's called the Zakat, and it's one of the Pillars of Islam. It's one of the thousands of ways in which Islam twines religion and state together. The debate we're having now would make no sense in the Islamic world - it would be as if someone were to inform us that we should split politics from government.

    But Centrist doesn't know that because he's too busy pretending that relativism is wisdom.
    Yes, there is that well known line about rendering unto Cesar, and so on, and yet the Catholic church was inextricably intertwined with government until the founders of the United States separated it. It was not until the late 18th. century that the idea of separation of the power of the church from that of the government began to take hold.

    The founding fathers of the United States knew well that there would be no liberty when the power of the state and the power of the church teamed up together. They knew that because church and state had been one for hundreds of years.
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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Yes, there is that well known line about rendering unto Cesar, and so on, and yet the Catholic church was inextricably intertwined with government until the founders of the United States separated it. It was not until the late 18th. century that the idea of separation of the power of the church from that of the government began to take hold.
    If I may direct you to St Augustines' The City of God, you may be pleasantly surprised

    The founding fathers of the United States knew well that there would be no liberty when the power of the state and the power of the church teamed up together. They knew that because church and state had been one for hundreds of years.
    In Britain, yes, where the Head of the State is the Head of the Church. But that had been a break with tradition in the form of a Political seizure of the Church, not the other way 'round.

  9. #619
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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If I may direct you to St Augustines' The City of God, you may be pleasantly surprised
    And may I join him in directing you to On Secular Authority by Martin Luther, published in 1523?

    Yes, there is that well known line about rendering unto Cesar, and so on, and yet the Catholic church was inextricably intertwined with government until the founders of the United States separated it. It was not until the late 18th. century that the idea of separation of the power of the church from that of the government began to take hold.
    There's a fundamental difference. According to Unam Sanctum, a papal bull issued in 1302, the Catholic Church acknowledges that there IS a secular political realm, and a religious realm. The state controls that secular realm, BUT religious authority is of a higher plane than secular authority. Therefore, the Papacy was allowed to intervene in temporal politics because its authority transcended them.

    Acknowledging two entities and saying one is higher than the other is VERY different from saying that the two authorities are literally one and the same -- an idea which is highly prevalent in Islam. Secularism as you know it had no real foothold in the Muslim world until 1945...and even then, only to be met with failure.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 05-26-11 at 02:48 AM.

  10. #620
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    Re: Herman Cain for president?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The first step is to convince the electorate that Obama is really a socialist out to destroy the country, and not just an intelligent and well meaning, but inexperienced liberal Democrat.

    Since there is no real evidence of the "socialist out to destroy the country" mantra, at least not one that anyone who would vote for a Democrat under any circumstances would actually believe, the task is quite a lot more difficult than the above post would indicate.

    Sorry, but yes, the Republicans really do have to come up with an electable candidate. So far, I've seen little evidence that they will do so.
    Of course, my statement was satire.
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