View Poll Results: Should the Young be allowed to Escape Paying In when they will never Draw Out?

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40. You may not vote on this poll
  • NO - I am over 40, and they should have to pay for me, even if they never draw out

    2 5.00%
  • YES - I am over 40, and they should be allowed to do so

    9 22.50%
  • SORTA - I'm over 40; they should be allowed to split their FICA between themselves and me

    3 7.50%
  • YES - I am under 40 and I would much rather not pay into an SS system I will never draw from

    21 52.50%
  • NO - I am under 40; I feel it's my obligation to pay the Boomers, though I will never see a dime

    5 12.50%
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Thread: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

  1. #131
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    I don't believe people have a lot of children because they are poor... A lot of people are poor because they have a lot of children.

  2. #132
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Lovetosing, thanks for replying to my post. An aside first: I’m a retired EE/ME my wife is a retired avionics software eng. flight management. Our concern is how many of these jobs are moving to India etc. in the past 18 years.

    You wrote “I have a lot in savings actually but it is in the form of loans I took out, put in a bank, and am making money off of it so when I graduate I will end up being able to pay it all back all at once and have made some money in the process.” Sorry, those loans are not savings, they don’t contribute to your net worth. Once you complete the arbitrage what you net will be earnings.

    You wrote “Considering I am majoring in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, I would hope I make a considerable amount of money once I graduate.” These jobs are moving overseas quickly. We were forced to assist and maintain this process when we were working. Good luck.

    You wrote “I realize I am very lucky to be in the family I am in.” Yes you are lucky.

    You wrote “My boyfriend's dad did not plan at all for retirement. He worked at the university here and retires next friday. The only reason he has any money to spend during his retirement his because of his ex wife and his son who helped him.” If he worked for the university he’ll be rescued by SS. He was forced to pay in a small amount now he’ll get small checks, what he deserves. He’ll be a burden, but not too much. One way to look at this particular incidence is his sons SS tax is converted into his SS check, it is a pay as you go system not an investment system.

    You wrote “Educate people and we could all be fine.” When I was young this is also what I thought. Now I know not saving for the future is a personality trait that is very hard to change if at all. And, people have bad luck, e.g. make bad investments in a 401k.
    I realize the money I have in loans is not savings but I have put the grants and scholarship money I have received in savings as well. The reason I mentioned the loans is because I used it to make money. I have never liked to spend money and I would never spend it when I was younger. Even now I wont spend my money on anything but necessities.

    I have honestly always wanted to move overseas. Try living there for a while but I hope I will have a job at a place I have been volunteering with when I graduate if not, I have a lot of networking with a few of the major companies such as Lockheed, Siemens, etc. I hope to be able to work here in Florida if possible if not I'm a flexible person. I will make do.

    My boyfriends dad will actually not be collecting SS when he retires. He will be getting a pension each month. My boyfriend is working on getting me to understand more but currently, I do quite understand all the ends and outs of where his money will be coming from but SS will not be coming into this just yet. He is still relatively young. I do understand what you are saying though. I just don't think its a good system whether it is pay as you go or an investment system.

    I would have to disagree on the personality trait, but I do understand what you are saying. I know someone whose mother taught her that the bank will steal your money from you if you put it in there (something that had to do with her not paying bills so they did take her money but for a real reason) and now she does not save anything but I think that this could have been prevented and could still be changed if education began early and continued throughout life. My boyfriend currently plans on giving a sort of "class" to the women she works with on how to save money and why you should. I will let you know if it does anything.

    My thought though is that it is not the government's job to save for everyone especially when it isn't working too well. If you can find a way to make sure that everyone gets paid what they paid in and that it can last forever, I would not have as much of a problem but when I see money coming out of my paycheck for something I don't plan on getting, I get angry.

  3. #133
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Lovetosing, thanks for replying again. Excellent details. You have set a course that has a high chance of success, flexibility being key. My guess is that your anger will soften with experience. SS tax will not keep you from being successful. It didn’t harm us. The value of our SS checks may or may not cover what we paid in, but it doesn’t matter since it is a small portion of our portfolio. Continued good luck.

  4. #134
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I don't believe people have a lot of children because they are poor... A lot of people are poor because they have a lot of children.
    No... it's proven the more educated you are the less kids one has. Put a nice school in an area the birthrate will go down drastically. It's because people will have actual goals in their life and they try harder to make better decisions and be smarter about them.

  5. #135
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Wow, your post offered insight into your basic underlying principles.
    irrespective of what people are saying, that's the incentive structure in a post-modern society with a solid entitlement support system for the elderly. hell, I know about this stuff, and me and the wife aren't sure we want a third? why? well, we have two boys, they're a lot of work (aie, especially the 3 year old, i swear that kid pops caffeine pills when we're not looking), i am gone a lot, it would be a lot on my wife, the wife doesn't want to go through pregnancy again, our income is low middle income... the incentive structure - since we don't need children - is against us having a third. but we both do want a third, and are hoping for a girl. perhaps we will adopt; plenty of children are abandoned to the system, and we could perhaps save a childs' life. we shall see.

    Population is another problem. It deserves another poll.
    overpopulation isn't a problem, and the people selling that pap have been proven embarrasingly amazingly wrong again, and again, and again. a society needs a birthrate of 2.1 just to sustain itself. less than that number means the society is becoming older, greyer, and less able to take care of it's more vulnerable members.

    no society in human history has ever come back from dipping below 1.8

    care to guess what southern europe's is?

    Quote Originally Posted by shewolf
    The issue of population implosion could be easily solved with immigration reform..
    yes, that was Europe's solution to the problem. the issue is that when you have to import massive amounts of child-producing immigrants to replace your current populace, there is little to no reason to suspect that they will automatically pick up your culture. that has been the experience in Europe, and to a lesser extent in parts of the US. so "The West" as an institution (you know, the enlightenment, scientific rationalism, limited government, secular government, rights for women, slavery foridden) will cease to exist in much of Europe, replaced by the culture of the immigrant populations.

    immigration can keep a society vibrant, refreshed, and growing. but you must have some level of mutual assimilation, where the governing norms of the society are adopted by the immigrants and the best parts of the immigrant society are adopted into the general culture.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-24-11 at 04:45 AM.

  6. #136
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I don't believe people have a lot of children because they are poor... A lot of people are poor because they have a lot of children.
    this is actually completely backwards. the birthrates in poorer countries are much higher - people start off poor then they have children. those who are poor are unable to store alot in disposable wealth, so they have to find other ways to secure themselves in their old age. their culture is one that contains' high birthrates - and provides them with a means to do so. we are doing the same thing with our entitlement structure - the problem is that by socializing the gain we provide no one with the incentives to take on the costs.

    that might be a good way to look at it. in the same way that socializing losses while privatizing gains (corporatism) turns an investment into a "sure thing" and invites a flood of people seeking to partake, potentially overwhelming the system and creating a bubble; socializing gains while privatizing losses (our entitlement system) invites a drought as people flee, creating a dearth. whether or not people articulate those incentives precisely as the reason for their decision, that is the incentive structure they are making decisions in, and that is what the culture encourages.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-24-11 at 04:57 AM.

  7. #137
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    No... it's proven the more educated you are the less kids one has. Put a nice school in an area the birthrate will go down drastically. It's because people will have actual goals in their life and they try harder to make better decisions and be smarter about them.
    I would definitely agree with this...

  8. #138
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    this is actually completely backwards. the birthrates in poorer countries are much higher - people start off poor then they have children. those who are poor are unable to store alot in disposable wealth, so they have to find other ways to secure themselves in their old age. their culture is one that contains' high birthrates - and provides them with a means to do so. we are doing the same thing with our entitlement structure - the problem is that by socializing the gain we provide no one with the incentives to take on the costs.

    that might be a good way to look at it. in the same way that socializing losses while privatizing gains (corporatism) turns an investment into a "sure thing" and invites a flood of people seeking to partake, potentially overwhelming the system and creating a bubble; socializing gains while privatizing losses (our entitlement system) invites a drought as people flee, creating a dearth. whether or not people articulate those incentives precisely as the reason for their decision, that is the incentive structure they are making decisions in, and that is what the culture encourages.
    You're just arguing causation. Children are expensive, have a lot of children can potentially decrease the households quality of life. If somebody is born in poverty, they are likely to get out of it if they have the proper resources... skills, time, and education, and it's hard to acquire an education and dedicate yourself to studies when you're first priority is taking care of your children.

    Outsourcing to poor countries does not make them wealthy or increase their quality of life...

    Are you saying that you favor corporatism and socialized losses?

  9. #139
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    Re: Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    You're just arguing causation. Children are expensive, have a lot of children can potentially decrease the households quality of life. If somebody is born in poverty, they are likely to get out of it if they have the proper resources... skills, time, and education, and it's hard to acquire an education and dedicate yourself to studies when you're first priority is taking care of your children.
    precisely. the people who are already poor - and this is a world-wide phenomena - have more kids. which makes it harder for them to accumulate wealth, but does (in cultures that aren't dependent on an entitlement system) provide them with a way of being taken care of in their old age.

    Outsourcing to poor countries does not make them wealthy or increase their quality of life
    if you are talking about "outsourcing jobs", then the incontrovertible fact is that it does; the largest and most succesful anti-poverty program the world has ever seen is globalization. More people have been lifted out of poverty in China alone than live in the United States. Globalization ("outsourcing") is brand new - what, only a generation old? and yet we have moved from the situation of the 1980s - where half of all people in devloping countries lived in extreme poverty - to 2010, where estimates are that less than 16% do.

    in one generation we are on track to reducing global poverty by 80%, thanks to the power of free trade and stable world order, headed by the United States.

    Are you saying that you favor corporatism and socialized losses?
    no, i am saying that both socialized losses with private gains and private losses with socialized gains distorts the system and leads to crash; they simply do it in opposite ways. this leaves with two alternatives; socialized gain and loss, or privatized gain and loss. the first has already been demonstrated as a historical failure - inimical to human nature and reality. that leaves us - if we wish to survive and grow - with the second.

    fortunately, the second is very, very good. I have demonstrated elsewhere how switching Social Security to an individual basis would allow even our low income workers to retire financially independent - even in the middle of market crashes. the early reporting in from the implementation of HSA's (which individualize the healthcare market) seems to demonstrate that it reduces costs, builds wealth, and does so without costing health quality (surely that is a better alternative than the Presidents' plan to ration care, which the CBO said wouldn't even save us any money?)

    Unfortunately, the politics of the second in a represntative society are very hard - and it is hard for the same reason that the system works: people function as individuals (or as family units), and they are self-interested. This means they will tend to seek to maximize their gain and minimize their loss - which in turn means broad public support for socializing losses and privatizing gains for themselves while seeking to privatize losses and socialize gains for others. I want others to have enough kids to pay for my retirement, but I don't want have them myself and I don't want to bailout the banks.

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