View Poll Results: w will this budget affect the 2012 election?

Voters
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  • It will help Obama/Democrats

    16 39.02%
  • It will help Republicans

    8 19.51%
  • Don't know

    10 24.39%
  • No change

    7 17.07%
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Thread: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

  1. #161
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do not add words to my words and put them in quotes. It is dishonest and committing intellectual fraud.


    It was a mistake, and I explained it, thank you. I am interested in your commentary on the rest of my post if you don't mind.
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  2. #162
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    There are two sides to a budget. Both must be dealt with. We need to cut spending which is at historic highs. We need to raise revenues which - for some - are at modern historical lows .

    I see one side advocating just this approach. I see the other side saying that one side is untouchable.

    The problem - as i see it - is that the Republican Party has bought lock, stock and barrel the right wing/conservative/libertarian think tank line that taxes must be continually cut and never raised. They have bought into this and trying to fix the budget then becomes akin to trying to run a marathon with a 90 pound weight strapped to your back while all the other equally skilled runners have no such liability imposed upon them.
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There are two sides to a budget. Both must be dealt with. We need to cut spending which is at historic highs. We need to raise revenues which - for some - are at modern historical lows .

    I see one side advocating just this approach. I see the other side saying that one side is untouchable.

    The problem - as i see it - is that the Republican Party has bought lock, stock and barrel the right wing/conservative/libertarian think tank line that taxes must be continually cut and never raised. They have bought into this and trying to fix the budget then becomes akin to trying to run a marathon with a 90 pound weight strapped to your back while all the other equally skilled runners have no such liability imposed upon them.


    Historically, Taxes go up to pay for spending, but spending does not get cut, for years under both democrats and republicans it has been this way. The Tea Party, and other like minded Americans feel that we are to be fooled no more, that we as a nation will not trust our government with new taxes until the spending is reigned in, They have proven they can not be trusted.


    I have seen nothing on the left for example, regarding spending cuts other than lipservice, in fact, Obama has increased spending in months compared to bush's 8 years, and thats with two wars going on.

    We can not afford this government we have, and taxes are not the answer, they are a discussion AFTER spending is cut, and I argue after a balanced budget amendment is passed.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #164
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Neither side trusts each other. That is not going to change.

    The only way to do is to lay down your money on the table at the exact same moment and make sure nobody can snatch it off again.
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Neither side trusts each other. That is not going to change.
    I trust niether side.


    The only way to do is to lay down your money on the table at the exact same moment and make sure nobody can snatch it off again.


    why would spending cuts require that. Stop spending the money then lets talk.
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  6. #166
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I trust niether side.





    why would spending cuts require that. Stop spending the money then lets talk.
    That approach merely benefits the Republicans and its obvious.

    It is the contention of the Democrats that one major reason we have a debt is that we do not take in enough revenue.
    It is the contention of the Republicans that one major reason we have a debt is that we spend too much.

    The middle ground is that both are correct and both must be corrected at the same time with the consent of the other side.

    Otherwise, its just more finger pointing and that will go nowhere.
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That approach merely benefits the Republicans and its obvious.
    I disagree, I as a libertarian thinks it benefits the country. Time and time again we have seen tax spikes with promise spending cuts in which the latter never materialize, the USG tax system is a gian ponzy scheme that needs to be held accountable just like you or I would.



    It is the contention of the Democrats that one major reason we have a debt is that we do not take in enough revenue.
    It is the contention of the Republicans that one major reason we have a debt is that we spend too much.

    The middle ground is that both are correct and both must be corrected at the same time with the consent of the other side.



    Otherwise, its just more finger pointing and that will go nowhere.


    Except that when taxes go up, the spending does not go down.... Fool me once and all that. Simple to see really.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  8. #168
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    I see precious little difference between conservatives, Republicans and libertarians when it comes down to the real economic issues of wealth and power that I care about. So that 'distinction' does nothing for me and does not really exist.

    The only way this is going to work is if the two sides are tied together and a mechanism is put in place to automatically make cuts to things like the debt. Perhaps tie a percentage of tax increases to automatic retirement of the debt or something along those lines that is done automatically and cannot be revoked by the next Congress.

    At the same time taxes are raised, spending cuts are tied to the same bills. Either you are in for the whole thing or you are in for nothing.

    Otherwise, its just one partisan solution over another partisan solution and nobody gives in.
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see precious little difference between conservatives, Republicans and libertarians when it comes down to the real economic issues of wealth and power that I care about. So that 'distinction' does nothing for me and does not really exist.

    well then that's on you isn't it. there are numerous differences that are clear as day, coporate welfare for one. Power is another. Libertarians favor very limited government while repulicans tend to favor strong social intervention into persona lives such as the DOMA and DADT.


    The only way this is going to work is if the two sides are tied together and a mechanism is put in place to automatically make cuts to things like the debt. Perhaps tie a percentage of tax increases to automatic retirement of the debt or something along those lines that is done automatically and cannot be revoked by the next Congress.

    At the same time taxes are raised, spending cuts are tied to the same bills. Either you are in for the whole thing or you are in for nothing.

    Otherwise, its just one partisan solution over another partisan solution and nobody gives in.


    I disagree, standing for tax raises at this point when the average family is struggling makes little sense. Even when taxing the "rich" (200k is not "rich" in the north east by any stretch of the imagination), this leads only to the Small businesses not hiring, and "rich" people not spending. A lose lose situation for America.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  10. #170
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    Re: The Ryan/Republican Budget - 2012 elections

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Historically, Taxes go up to pay for spending, but spending does not get cut, for years under both democrats and republicans it has been this way. The Tea Party, and other like minded Americans feel that we are to be fooled no more, that we as a nation will not trust our government with new taxes until the spending is reigned in, They have proven they can not be trusted.


    I have seen nothing on the left for example, regarding spending cuts other than lipservice, in fact, Obama has increased spending in months compared to bush's 8 years, and thats with two wars going on.

    We can not afford this government we have, and taxes are not the answer, they are a discussion AFTER spending is cut, and I argue after a balanced budget amendment is passed.

    Well written sensible post reverend and you hit precisely on my biggest problem with the ryan bill.


    We can not afford this government we have, and taxes are not the answer, they are a discussion AFTER spending is cut, and I argue after a balanced budget amendment is passed.[/QUOTE]

    I agree and you DONT talk about huge across the board candy store tax cuts for only the richest and couple that with huge increases for the middleclass. The teaparty is radical and extreme the same as the left is...they are just in two different directions.

    If you been following this closely there a change in support in the wind...soon we will find out where the chips will fall with the american people...the ryan plan as written was DOA

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