View Poll Results: Should we Eliminate Social Security

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  • Yes, no replacement

    18 30.00%
  • Yes, but with a replacement

    11 18.33%
  • No, we should wait until it goes bankrupt

    1 1.67%
  • No, its not going to go bankrupt

    26 43.33%
  • Other

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

  1. #281
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    [QUOTE=Harry Guerrilla;1059422056]
    No, it's just that you're inconsistent in your beliefs.
    One second you say might makes right, the next Bushes war is bad.

    Which is it chief?
    I have never said might makes right. I said I believe in a representative government, that We the Peole call the shots. Who do you want making our policy decisions sonny?




    Right but before, a majority supported it.
    So were you in their camp?
    i was not alive than.




    This is a straw man, since I never, ever said pensions but I did say private accounts.
    Private accounts is where millions lost their pensions.


    And those numbers are bunk, it measures the income level based on the individual and not on the household, which would show that not 50% were in poverty.
    Thanks for your unsupported minority opinion.




    When is the Constitution "living" and when it is fixed in meaning?
    It is completely up to We the People.



    And even though you keep parroting this, you can not reassure anyone that it won't be robbed again, even with your amendment, that will never be proposed or passed.
    When the problem becomes serious it will have to be addressed.



    Skating would mean that they didn't pay, at least an equal share of the tax burden, but you already know that isn't true.
    They have enjoyed 30 years of large tax cuts. It is in our historical record.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #282
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    [QUOTE=Catawba;1059422069]
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    I have never said might makes right. I said I believe in a representative government, that We the Peole call the shots. Who do you want making our policy decisions sonny?
    In other words, you believe in the might of a majority of those who vote to take things from other people for you own use - that is might makes right.

    They have enjoyed 30 years of large tax cuts. It is in our historical record.
    While the rates have been cut, so have the loopholes so that they now pay more than they did before. The people that have enjoyed 30 years of large tax cuts are the 40% + that now pay no taxes or pay negative taxes (they get more back than they put in).

  3. #283
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by ggh View Post

    In other words, you believe in the might of a majority of those who vote to take things from other people for you own use - that is might makes right.
    No, I believe what the the Constitution says about a representative government of WE THE PEOPLE.

    Who do you think should be calling the shots for our country?


    While the rates have been cut, so have the loopholes so that they now pay more than they did before. The people that have enjoyed 30 years of large tax cuts are the 40% + that now pay no taxes or pay negative taxes (they get more back than they put in).
    Go read our history, more loopholes were provided under Reagan and Bush, as well as slashing the top tax rates, and Capital Gains taxes.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #284
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    You and CPwill and turtledude have NEVER answered this question...Walmart a RETAIL STORE is the largest employer in the United States, half their employees are part time..how does a walmart worker pay for all of lifes necessities and save for their retirement and for senior health care...
    interesting that you would bring this up in the context of Wal-Mart, as they are leading the way in finding low-cost innovations in healthcare provision.

    however, i would point out to you that Wal-Mart's workers are also overwhelmingly the second employment in the household (which is why it is so flexible and/or part time), or simply working a second job; and in either case, the WalMart pay is not the primary income stream. I would also point out to you that - while it is not easy - it is certainly plausible to save for the future on a low income. You simply have to be willing to practice an ancient form of dark magic known as "budgeting" in which you "live on less than you make." By worshiping at the dark altar of the "written budget" my family was able to save a little over $400 a month towards retirement when our income (we had one - mine - and it was that of an E3 in the military) was low enough that we rated food stamps. We got about 2500-ish a month, and we tithed 250 a month as well. So we were living with just the three of us off of about $1850 - or about $616 bucks per person, per month. Our apartment was pretty nice, we both had paid off cars, we didn't eat out much but we ate well... all through the magical power of the Budget.

    So I don't have much sympathy when people tell me that they don't make enough to save. Just saving $40 a week over a working lifetime of 20-65 in an account that matches the CAGR of the SP500 (so literally the easiest, most dumb-dumb simplist way to do it) accounting for inflation would be worth $887,000. Most folks' incomes go up over time - and minimum wage earners (the majority of whom - again - are either part time second-jobbers or teenagers on their first job) are no different; so start saving 40 bucks a week now and bump it up to 100 once you start making more money. The habits this builds become an amazing virtuous reinforcing cycle. I'm about to start looking at whether i want to open up an IRA for my wife because - on a Sergeants pay, with two small children, one of whom is attending private school - I've already maxed out my IRA for the year, and am on track to max out both my kids college savings funds by halfway through summer.

    so the answer to your question is: they only reason they wouldn't do it is because they are either uninformed, or don't care to.

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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, I believe what the the Constitution says about a representative government of WE THE PEOPLE.
    But then you do not believe in the part of the COTUS that deliniates the specific powers granted to Congress, hint: wealth redistribution is not one of them.

    Who do you think should be calling the shots for our country?
    I believe in the COTUS where most of the power resides with the States and the individual citizens, I also believe in limited government at the State level, but that is determined by each state's constitution.

    But even that is still rule by might makes right, there is no system where that is not true, the only differences in systems are what items the might of the majority are allowed to rule.


    Go read our history, more loopholes were provided under Reagan and Bush, as well as slashing the top tax rates, and Capital Gains taxes.
    Go and actually study the tax datarather than opinion pieces, that is where you will find history.
    In 1993 only .87% of tax returns had gross income above 200,000 and they accounted for 16.29% of all gross income. In 2008 3.07% (3.5 times as many) had incomes above 200,000 yet they only accounted for 29.81% of the gross income.

    In 1993 those making more than 200,000 paid 27.60% of all income taxes in 2008 they paid 50.09% of all income taxes.

    1993 tax data
    2008 tax data

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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by ggh View Post
    But then you do not believe in the part of the COTUS that deliniates the specific powers granted to Congress, hint: wealth redistribution is not one of them.


    I believe in the COTUS where most of the power resides with the States and the individual citizens, I also believe in limited government at the State level, but that is determined by each state's constitution.

    But even that is still rule by might makes right, there is no system where that is not true, the only differences in systems are what items the might of the majority are allowed to rule.
    I prefer this country's representative system as outlined by our Constitution.


    Go and actually study the tax datarather than opinion pieces, that is where you will find history.
    In 1993 only .87% of tax returns had gross income above 200,000 and they accounted for 16.29% of all gross income. In 2008 3.07% (3.5 times as many) had incomes above 200,000 yet they only accounted for 29.81% of the gross income.

    In 1993 those making more than 200,000 paid 27.60% of all income taxes in 2008 they paid 50.09% of all income taxes.

    1993 tax data
    2008 tax data
    "Soon after taking office in 1981, Reagan signed into law one of the largest tax cuts in the postwar period. "

    "The 1981 bill also made certain business deductions more generous."

    "In 1986, Reagan lowered individual income tax rates again, this time in landmark tax reform legislation.

    As a result of the 1981 and 1986 bills, the top income tax rate was slashed from 70% to 28%."
    Taxes: What people forget about Reagan - Sep. 8, 2010



    "As part of a law passed late last year, the Bush-era tax cuts for the richest Americans were extended for two years. The estimated cost to the government of that portion of the tax deal, $42 billion this fiscal year, exceeds the stated $38 billion value of the savings from the federal budget cuts lawmakers approved last week.

    Those budget cuts, which will affect many services for poor Americans, add more strain to a still weak economy, leading some economists to lament that this allocation of federal resources is not the most efficient way to promote economic growth.

    "I don't think it's a good time to be trimming federal outlays if you're interested in the vulnerability of the economy," said economist Gary Burtless, formerly with the Labor Department and now at the Brookings Institution. "I'm not quite sure where the theories come from that this is going to strengthen economic growth over the next 12 to 18 months. It's going to have the reverse effect. It's going to slow it down."
    Cost Of Tax Cuts For America's Rich Exceeds Value Of Budget Cuts
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #287
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Combined Annualized Growth Rate for the S&P 500 (adjusted for inflation) between 1982 and 2010 - so including the Tech Bubble and the Real Estate Bubble - comes out to 8.13%. for nothing more fancy than buying an index fund.
    A problem with talking about average investment returns is that there is real ambiguity about what people mean by "average". For example, if you had an investment that went up 100% one year and then came down 50% the next, you certainly wouldn't say that you had an average return of 25% = (100% - 50%)/2, because your principal is back where it started: your real annualized gain is zero.

    For example as I said ovetime stocks in whatever form they take outdo any other type of investment. Even when the stocks are boardbased such as an indexed fund were investors attempt to minimize the risk by spreading the risk out over a broad array of stocks your annex fund still tanks in certain years. For example if someone with a indexed fund retired in 2008 they would have -37% less in their fund than if they retired a just a year earlier. Something that most of us can not afford.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes, and i demonstrated in my Social Security Fix thread that even if the stock market went bust at the worst point in time for a retiree (just as they retired) and they then proceeded to make the worst possible set of decisions (pulling everything out at the very bottom of the trough and holding it in cash), the result would still be more than twice the benefit than they would receive from Social Security.
    Let's just say I don't thionk so. Another pattern: while stocks have certainly beaten inflation over the long run, they've done poorly within the high-inflation periods themselves: try the inflation-adjusted returns for 1916-1918, 1946-1947, and 1973-1981. From '73 to '81 for example stocks showed a average return of -1.69 or an Annualized inflation-adjusted return of -3.79. Certainly not a rosey picture for someone in those cercumstances.


    Social Security can be saved and it should be saved. And BTW most baby boomers of which I'm a proud card carrying member are fiscal responsible the up coming generation which signed up for floating rate mortgages mm not so much. One should carry a little credit so that you have a credit score just in case you need a loan to pay medical bills, buy a house, refit your business.....

    I will grant you that most Americans don't have enough money stashed away for retirement mainly because they start saving too late.
    Last edited by Rick345; 04-20-11 at 06:04 PM.

  8. #288
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick345 View Post
    A problem with talking about average investment returns is that there is real ambiguity about what people mean by "average". For example, if you had an investment that went up 100% one year and then came down 50% the next, you certainly wouldn't say that you had an average return of 25% = (100% - 50%)/2, because your principal is back where it started: your real annualized gain is zero.
    yes. that's why i went with the Combined Annualized Growth Rate; which accounts for precisely that phenomena. the specific dates i used were 1982-2010, so it takes into accout three full market crashes; 1987, 2001, and 2008.

    funny that you would quote them so precisely.

    Social Security can be saved and it should be saved. And BTW most baby boomers of which I'm a proud card carrying member are fiscal responsible
    no, you're not. ya'll (by and large) didn't save enough for retirement, and instead you voted yourselves a bunch of unsustainable entitlements that you expect us to somehow come up with the money for. You ruined the nations' fisc worse even than you ruined everything else you touched (with the admitted and notable exception of music).

    the up coming generation which signed up for floating rate mortgages mm not so much
    the baby boomers weren't exactly immune to that spree; many of you thought the ever-increasing value of your home would secure your retirement to make up for your lack of savings. but yes, the younger generation wasn't taught fiscal responsibility by it's baby boomer parents, and so now we will have to learn the hard way. but I think we will, early polling data seems to indicate we are already more conservative than ya'll are, and certainly we are about to all get a lesson in the result of living in debt.

    One should carry a little credit so that you have a credit score just in case you need a loan to pay medical bills, buy a house, refit your business.....
    no, one shouldn't. one should have an emergency fund of 6 months of living expenses because you don't need a FICA score. all "credit" is is the ability to go into debt. you are paying for the privilege of using your own money so that later you can pay more for the privilege of using even more of your own money. Consumer debt is one of the worst things that the Baby Boomers convinced themselves of and then passed on to their kids.

    I live debt free. the only time "I" "borrow money" is when I travel on official orders - and then I use the governments' credit card, not my own. and they pay it off, not me.

    The No Debt lifestyle has left me (somehow) with a credit score of 788. but if it was zero I wouldn't care.

    I will grant you that most Americans don't have enough money stashed away for retirement mainly because they start saving too late.
    ye-up. and that's why I want to change Social Security so that it becomes a vehicle for precisely that, as opposed to a millstone around the American people.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-20-11 at 06:34 PM.

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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes. that's why i went with the Combined Annualized Growth Rate; which accounts for precisely that phenomena. the specific dates i used were 1982-2010, so it takes into accout three full market crashes; 1987, 2001, and 2008.

    funny that you would quote them so precisely.
    It's not funny at all I copy and paste whenever possible it saves time, and wear and tare on my spell checker...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the specific dates i used were 1982-2010, so it takes into accout three full market crashes; 1987, 2001, and 2008.
    So you did but, I'm curious we you never mentioned the stardard deviation on the forular used to determine someone would achieve a 8.31% return on their money? Which by the way happens to be 16.37 which means that while 68% of time people would receive 8.31% on their money which would be a healthy return... But, 16% of the time people would receive 27.31% a very nice return indeed but, the flip side is there is a 16% chance someone would lose 11.69% on their money and that would be devistating.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, one shouldn't. one should have an emergency fund of 6 months of living expenses because you don't need a FICA score. all "credit" is is the ability to go into debt. you are paying for the privilege of using your own money so that later you can pay more for the privilege of using even more of your own money. Consumer debt is one of the worst things that the Baby Boomers convinced themselves of and then passed on to their kids.
    By and large I agree with you but, without credit one would have no credit score and without a credit score one would have touble buying a big ticket item such as a house or car. I don't live debt free I do use a credit card when I go on trips as well but, its my own and its more convent and safer than carrying wads of cash or even traveler checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The No Debt lifestyle has left me (somehow) with a credit score of 788. but if it was zero I wouldn't care.
    Well how did you manage that, you must have had a credit card or bought a house or car on credit at one time in order to have a credit score at all..
    Last edited by Rick345; 05-01-11 at 09:20 PM.

  10. #290
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    Re: Should we Eliminate Social Security?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, I believe what the the Constitution says about a representative government of WE THE PEOPLE.

    Who do you think should be calling the shots for our country?
    Representatives, but they should not have nearly as much power as they do today.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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