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Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?


  • Total voters
    52
maybe...I have pride in my country, admittedly not as much as I had 10 yrs ago but I still do...I would be a very unhappy old fart if I couldnt feel pride for where i was born and raised....I feel for anyone that doesnt have pride in their country

Like I said in an above post, I think loving one's country and being proud of one's country are two different concepts. I love my country. I think being proud of it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. :shrug:
 
Yeah, goodness knows, when I think of a good citizen, my mind goes right to drug addicted pimps. :mrgreen:


Don't be mad Kali, I just had to give you a little **** for that.

Stop Hating!:lamo:lamo
 
Stop Hating!:lamo:lamo

funny_cat_pictures_231.jpg
 
Well, one's debt to society consists of not being a burden. Paying taxes is only required for those taxes that fund Constitutional items. Finding creative ways to avoid paying the rest is perfectly moral.

If one isn't proud of the country they're living in, then why the hell didn't Michelle Obama move to whatever country it was that would make her happy?

To put the blunt point on the thrust of this particular thread.
 
I'm not proud of my country. In fact, I find the whole idea of patriotism to be outdated...and really not all that different from odious concepts like "white pride." Why would you be proud of something you have no control over? I mean, it was only an accident of birth that you were born where you were, instead of in the backwaters of Uganda. If you're an immigrant to your country, I can understand being proud of that accomplishment, but I still don't understand "pride in one's country."

What is there to be proud of? Some imperfect men (who aren't me) who happened to exist within the arbitrarily-defined borders of my "country" did some stuff a long time ago that led to the foundation of this country, over which I am nominally a part? I guess I could understand that THEY would have pride in their own accomplishments...but why would *I* be proud of it? I wasn't the one who did it.

I think that patriotism - like white nationalism - tends to be used to justify all sorts of harmful behavior against anyone who isn't part of the "in-group." Sometimes it's pretty blatant xenophobia ("I don't want to press 1 for English") and sometimes it's more subtle ("they hate us for our freedom"), but the end result is typically the same: Stupid actions that harm others for no discernible reason.
 
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We are the United States of America and we could round up all you pride-less members getting in the way and put you in a boat over a cliff. There's nothing anybody could do about it. Nobody is so powerful.

Then we'd have nobody that wasn't proud of this wonderful country.
 
I'm not proud of my country. In fact, I find the whole idea of patriotism to be outdated...and really not all that different from odious concepts like "white pride." Why would you be proud of something you have no control over? I mean, it was only an accident of birth that you were born where you were, instead of in the backwaters of Uganda. If you're an immigrant to your country, I can understand being proud of that accomplishment, but I still don't understand "pride in one's country."

What is there to be proud of? Some imperfect men (who aren't me) who happened to exist within the arbitrarily-defined borders of my "country" did some stuff a long time ago that led to the foundation of this country, over which I am nominally a part? I guess I could understand that THEY would have pride in their own accomplishments...but why would *I* be proud of it? I wasn't the one who did it.

I think that patriotism - like white nationalism - tends to be used to justify all sorts of harmful behavior against anyone who isn't part of the "in-group." Sometimes it's pretty blatant xenophobia ("I don't want to press 1 for English") and sometimes it's more subtle ("they hate us for our freedom"), but the end result is typically the same: Stupid actions that harm others for no discernible reason.

Patriotism = racism. LOL. I guess I shoulda seen that one coming.
 
We are the United States of America and we could round up all you pride-less members getting in the way and put you in a boat over a cliff. There's nothing anybody could do about it. Nobody is so powerful.

Then we'd have nobody that wasn't proud of this wonderful country.
Naw, one of the great things about this country is that people have the right to their opinions, and the right to express them.
 
Naw, one of the great things about this country is that people have the right to their opinions, and the right to express them.

Well, OK. But I don't want to have to take steps. Don't make me take steps!:3oops:
 
I'm not proud of my country. In fact, I find the whole idea of patriotism to be outdated...and really not all that different from odious concepts like "white pride." Why would you be proud of something you have no control over? I mean, it was only an accident of birth that you were born where you were, instead of in the backwaters of Uganda. If you're an immigrant to your country, I can understand being proud of that accomplishment, but I still don't understand "pride in one's country."

What is there to be proud of? Some imperfect men (who aren't me) who happened to exist within the arbitrarily-defined borders of my "country" did some stuff a long time ago that led to the foundation of this country, over which I am nominally a part? I guess I could understand that THEY would have pride in their own accomplishments...but why would *I* be proud of it? I wasn't the one who did it.

I think that patriotism - like white nationalism - tends to be used to justify all sorts of harmful behavior against anyone who isn't part of the "in-group." Sometimes it's pretty blatant xenophobia ("I don't want to press 1 for English") and sometimes it's more subtle ("they hate us for our freedom"), but the end result is typically the same: Stupid actions that harm others for no discernible reason.

hmm...what's the difference between patriotism and nationalism? I think there is a distinction.
 
Some people are relentlessly jingoistic. Their sense of group identity is so extreme that they are threatened by any hint our actions may not be what they should be. They believe might makes right, and their sense of rightness only goes so far as to considering who is doing it rather than what is being done. Quite often, these people are bigoted, if not down right racist, as they value their own people so highly they refuse to consider any others as being equal.

Other people are so relentlessly critical that theirs is little more than an expression of self-loathing projected onto their entire country, people or culture. They fall for the enemy of their enemy being their friend fallacy, and since their own culture is their enemy, they also form very hypocritical positions based upon who is doing what. Quite often, these people can be bigoted, especially in terms of reverse racism as their self-loathing is such that they are incapable of separating attitudes from people and so act as apologists for those attitudes arising from protected classes of people while assailing any arising from their own.

Neither group recognizes itself, even as they both feed off each other. One is more characteristic of the right and one is more characteristic of the left, and both will sputter and protest and obfuscate and deny that their rhetoric shows an undeniable pattern to it indicating the degree of either their jingoism or cultural self-loathing.

I just wish there were more people unlike them than there are like them.
 
Patriotism = racism. LOL. I guess I shoulda seen that one coming.

Well what's the difference between being proud of the accident of birth that you were born within the arbitrary boundaries of a country, versus being proud of the accident of birth that you were born a member of a socially-constructed "race"? In either case, you had no control over the matter. So why would you be proud of the accomplishments of others who happen to belong to your group, whether it's nationality or race?
 
hmm...what's the difference between patriotism and nationalism? I think there is a distinction.

Patriotism is a slightly more subtle form of nationalism, but they're basically the same. They both encourage people to think in terms of us versus them. With patriotism, people think that it's not harmful because they're just expressing how wonderful their OWN country is...which is why I drew the "white pride" analogy. If people are proud of their own country, it's not such a big leap to think that they are better than other countries and that others are therefore inferior. That seems to be the rationale, however much it's cloaked in nice language, of the "American exceptionalism" crowd. Or let's not forget the fact that any politician who suggests we copy the successful policies of another country would be shouted down as an America-hater, and reprimanded by the opposition for thinking that America is anything other than #1 in (fill in the blank policy).

I see no reason to be any more proud of the accomplishments of John Adams than I am of the accomplishments of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. They were both imperfect men who did some good things. Yet I'm supposed to feel more pride in John Adams because he lived a few hundred miles from me, instead of a few thousand?
 
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Patriotism is a slightly more subtle form of nationalism, but they're basically the same. They both encourage people to think in terms of us versus them. With patriotism, people think that it's not harmful because they're just expressing how wonderful their OWN country is...which is why I drew the "white pride" analogy. If people are proud of their own country, it's not such a big leap to think that they are better than other countries and that others are therefore inferior. That seems to be the rationale, however much it's cloaked in nice language, of the "American exceptionalism" crowd. Or let's not forget the fact that any politician who suggests we copy the successful policies of another country would be shouted down as an America-hater, and reprimanded by the opposition for thinking that America is anything other than #1 in (fill in the blank policy).

I see no reason to be any more proud of the accomplishments of John Adams than I am of the accomplishments of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. They were both imperfect men who did some good things. Yet I'm supposed to feel more pride in John Adams because he lived a few hundred miles from me, instead of a few thousand?

The "us vs. them" mentality is part of the reason I see a strong sense of patriotism as harmful. It has enabled many people, particularly on the right, to create a strict set of requirements to being a patriot that not only sets informal restraints to free speech but also hinders national progress in a certain sense. It inspires people to make arbitrary requirements of patriotism and to blindly censor their own thoughts and speech because they reject certain ideas that have been branded "unpatriotic". We've seen stuff like this on this board, where someones definition of patriotism is used as an attack on argument.

For example, it is often said/implied that to attempt to understand, or God forbid empathize, with members of anti-American terrorist organizations is "unpatriotic". With that label, the conversation is meant to end. It's meant to say, "By understanding and empathizing with those who killed Americans, you are a traitor of this country". It's an idea that is based in the juvenile assumption that one cannot understand and empathize with two different groups of people - that our understanding and empathy must be reserved only for "us" and never wasted upon "them". It's a dangerous assumption that has the capacity to turn an entire country into xenophobic people who are 1) unwilling to examine their nation's faults 2) unable to connect to people outside their own borders.

There's this idea in much of the country that we cannot favor or even consider ideas that are outside a certain definition of patriotism. It's harmful and counterproductive. See Sarah Palin's infamous "real America".
 
No. I would argue that blindly supporting everything your country does (in a democracy) makes you a pretty poor citizen.
 
For example, it is often said/implied that to attempt to understand, or God forbid empathize, with members of anti-American terrorist organizations is "unpatriotic". With that label, the conversation is meant to end. It's meant to say, "By understanding and empathizing with those who killed Americans, you are a traitor of this country". It's an idea that is based in the juvenile assumption that one cannot understand and empathize with two different groups of people - that our understanding and empathy must be reserved only for "us" and never wasted upon "them". It's a dangerous assumption that has the capacity to turn an entire country into xenophobic people who are 1) unwilling to examine their nation's faults 2) unable to connect to people outside their own borders.
This is awesome, patriotism makes you a racist and it's better to empathize with anti-American terrorist organizations, cause, you know, they're the people that really do good things and I'm sure they show no racism, bigotry or "pride" in what they accomplish, granted that's usually scored in the terms of bodies. :roll:
 
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This is awesome, patriotism makes you a racist and it's better to empathize with anti-American terrorist organizations, cause, you know, they're the people that really do good things and I'm sure they show no racism or "pride" in what they accomplish, granted that's usually scored in the terms of bodies, :roll:

You just proved my point impeccably and the best part is that you don't even know how unfortunate it is. Like I said:

It inspires people to make arbitrary requirements of patriotism and to blindly censor their own thoughts and speech because they reject certain ideas that have been branded "unpatriotic". We've seen stuff like this on this board...It's an idea that is based in the juvenile assumption that one cannot understand and empathize with two different groups of people - that our understanding and empathy must be reserved only for "us" and never wasted upon "them".

I never said it was better - I said that it was possible to do both. I hope to God that you don't work in the government.
 
You just proved my point impeccably and the best part is that you don't even know how unfortunate it is. Like I said:



I never said it was better - I said that it was possible to do both. I hope to God that you don't work in the government.

Given your diatribe against American patriotism, I just find it incredibly ironic that you're ok with the the same traits you bash us for exhibited in people who actually kill people just for not being like them.
 
Patriotism is a slightly more subtle form of nationalism, but they're basically the same. They both encourage people to think in terms of us versus them. With patriotism, people think that it's not harmful because they're just expressing how wonderful their OWN country is...which is why I drew the "white pride" analogy. If people are proud of their own country, it's not such a big leap to think that they are better than other countries and that others are therefore inferior. That seems to be the rationale, however much it's cloaked in nice language, of the "American exceptionalism" crowd. Or let's not forget the fact that any politician who suggests we copy the successful policies of another country would be shouted down as an America-hater, and reprimanded by the opposition for thinking that America is anything other than #1 in (fill in the blank policy).

I see no reason to be any more proud of the accomplishments of John Adams than I am of the accomplishments of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. They were both imperfect men who did some good things. Yet I'm supposed to feel more pride in John Adams because he lived a few hundred miles from me, instead of a few thousand?

What nonsense.

If you believe another nation is superior to the United States, explain why you haven't relocated.

That the United States is superior to "other countries" cannot be denied. Sudan isn't the equal to the US. Nor is Saudi Arabia, Britain, Uganda, France, Zimbabwe, Germany, Brazil, Spain, Japan, Canada, China, Italy, Cambodia, or Russia.

That the US has failings cannot be denied. Those failings are inextricably linked with our nation's failure to comply with what makes this nation great, the belief that a man is his own master and as such bears responsibility for the choices he makes. Socialism destroys that connection, and the implementation of socialism requires the destruction of the Constitution that enables men to be the captains of their own destiny.
 
Given your diatribe against American patriotism, I just find it incredibly ironic that you're ok with the the same traits you bash us for exhibited in people who actually kill people just for not being like them.

Where did I say that I was okay with the type of patriotism that I'm criticizing? Show so that I can tell you why you were wrong.

Let me give you a clue: You're arguing against what you WANT me to have said not what I ACTUALLY said. I can only guess that your reason for doing this is that you have not yet reached the point in adulthood where citizens realize that it is possible to understand and empathize with the enemy while at the same time understanding and empathizing with their fellow citizens. When you move beyond looking at people in terms of nationality and their status as an ally or enemy of the U.S. and start to look at people first as human beings, then you will be able to read my comment for WHAT IT IS and not for WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.

Until then, please stay out of the government - many them have to empathize with and understand "them" in order to defend the United States. I can only imagine how unsafe we would be if you were involved in foreign policy decisions.
 
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I actually like nationalism. I understand its connection to some evils, but I think it has benefited us greatly in identity and many others as well.
 
This is awesome, patriotism makes you a racist and it's better to empathize with anti-American terrorist organizations, cause, you know, they're the people that really do good things and I'm sure they show no racism, bigotry or "pride" in what they accomplish, granted that's usually scored in the terms of bodies. :roll:

Sounds to me like you don't know what empathize means. Hint: It's not the same as sympathize.
 
Given your diatribe against American patriotism, I just find it incredibly ironic that you're ok with the the same traits you bash us for exhibited in people who actually kill people just for not being like them.

The United States actually kills people for not being like them...and generally a lot more than any terrorist group does. And when they do, their actions are often cheered on by many members of this forum. Let's not pretend that your **** doesn't stink just because you happened to be born in this country.
 
It's certainly possible to be a good citizen and be thoroughly ashamed or disgusted with your country. Heroically standing up to injustice certainly qualifies as good citizenship. Do you think that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was not ashamed of his nation's systematic repression of an entire race of people? He stood up and fought to make his country better. In fact, you could argue that being proud or satisfied by one's country breeds complacency, and only the truly malcontent ever make things better.
 
The United States actually kills people for not being like them...and generally a lot more than any terrorist group does. And when they do, their actions are often cheered on by many members of this forum. Let's not pretend that your **** doesn't stink just because you happened to be born in this country.

I think that comment went a little far to say the least.
 
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