View Poll Results: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

Voters
61. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    14 22.95%
  • no

    42 68.85%
  • other

    4 6.56%
  • not voting (rootabega)

    1 1.64%
Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 136

Thread: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

  1. #81
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New Orleans
    Last Seen
    05-06-11 @ 07:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    3,082

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    We are the United States of America and we could round up all you pride-less members getting in the way and put you in a boat over a cliff. There's nothing anybody could do about it. Nobody is so powerful.

    Then we'd have nobody that wasn't proud of this wonderful country.

  2. #82
    Dungeon Master
    anti socialist

    X Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Texas Proud
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:48 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    44,725

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not proud of my country. In fact, I find the whole idea of patriotism to be outdated...and really not all that different from odious concepts like "white pride." Why would you be proud of something you have no control over? I mean, it was only an accident of birth that you were born where you were, instead of in the backwaters of Uganda. If you're an immigrant to your country, I can understand being proud of that accomplishment, but I still don't understand "pride in one's country."

    What is there to be proud of? Some imperfect men (who aren't me) who happened to exist within the arbitrarily-defined borders of my "country" did some stuff a long time ago that led to the foundation of this country, over which I am nominally a part? I guess I could understand that THEY would have pride in their own accomplishments...but why would *I* be proud of it? I wasn't the one who did it.

    I think that patriotism - like white nationalism - tends to be used to justify all sorts of harmful behavior against anyone who isn't part of the "in-group." Sometimes it's pretty blatant xenophobia ("I don't want to press 1 for English") and sometimes it's more subtle ("they hate us for our freedom"), but the end result is typically the same: Stupid actions that harm others for no discernible reason.
    Patriotism = racism. LOL. I guess I shoulda seen that one coming.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mahatma Gandhi


  3. #83
    Dungeon Master
    anti socialist

    X Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Texas Proud
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:48 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    44,725

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by sazerac View Post
    We are the United States of America and we could round up all you pride-less members getting in the way and put you in a boat over a cliff. There's nothing anybody could do about it. Nobody is so powerful.

    Then we'd have nobody that wasn't proud of this wonderful country.
    Naw, one of the great things about this country is that people have the right to their opinions, and the right to express them.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mahatma Gandhi


  4. #84
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New Orleans
    Last Seen
    05-06-11 @ 07:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    3,082

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Naw, one of the great things about this country is that people have the right to their opinions, and the right to express them.
    Well, OK. But I don't want to have to take steps. Don't make me take steps!

  5. #85
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not proud of my country. In fact, I find the whole idea of patriotism to be outdated...and really not all that different from odious concepts like "white pride." Why would you be proud of something you have no control over? I mean, it was only an accident of birth that you were born where you were, instead of in the backwaters of Uganda. If you're an immigrant to your country, I can understand being proud of that accomplishment, but I still don't understand "pride in one's country."

    What is there to be proud of? Some imperfect men (who aren't me) who happened to exist within the arbitrarily-defined borders of my "country" did some stuff a long time ago that led to the foundation of this country, over which I am nominally a part? I guess I could understand that THEY would have pride in their own accomplishments...but why would *I* be proud of it? I wasn't the one who did it.

    I think that patriotism - like white nationalism - tends to be used to justify all sorts of harmful behavior against anyone who isn't part of the "in-group." Sometimes it's pretty blatant xenophobia ("I don't want to press 1 for English") and sometimes it's more subtle ("they hate us for our freedom"), but the end result is typically the same: Stupid actions that harm others for no discernible reason.
    hmm...what's the difference between patriotism and nationalism? I think there is a distinction.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #86
    free market communist
    Gardener's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    09-30-17 @ 12:27 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    26,661

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Some people are relentlessly jingoistic. Their sense of group identity is so extreme that they are threatened by any hint our actions may not be what they should be. They believe might makes right, and their sense of rightness only goes so far as to considering who is doing it rather than what is being done. Quite often, these people are bigoted, if not down right racist, as they value their own people so highly they refuse to consider any others as being equal.

    Other people are so relentlessly critical that theirs is little more than an expression of self-loathing projected onto their entire country, people or culture. They fall for the enemy of their enemy being their friend fallacy, and since their own culture is their enemy, they also form very hypocritical positions based upon who is doing what. Quite often, these people can be bigoted, especially in terms of reverse racism as their self-loathing is such that they are incapable of separating attitudes from people and so act as apologists for those attitudes arising from protected classes of people while assailing any arising from their own.

    Neither group recognizes itself, even as they both feed off each other. One is more characteristic of the right and one is more characteristic of the left, and both will sputter and protest and obfuscate and deny that their rhetoric shows an undeniable pattern to it indicating the degree of either their jingoism or cultural self-loathing.

    I just wish there were more people unlike them than there are like them.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  7. #87
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Patriotism = racism. LOL. I guess I shoulda seen that one coming.
    Well what's the difference between being proud of the accident of birth that you were born within the arbitrary boundaries of a country, versus being proud of the accident of birth that you were born a member of a socially-constructed "race"? In either case, you had no control over the matter. So why would you be proud of the accomplishments of others who happen to belong to your group, whether it's nationality or race?
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  8. #88
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    hmm...what's the difference between patriotism and nationalism? I think there is a distinction.
    Patriotism is a slightly more subtle form of nationalism, but they're basically the same. They both encourage people to think in terms of us versus them. With patriotism, people think that it's not harmful because they're just expressing how wonderful their OWN country is...which is why I drew the "white pride" analogy. If people are proud of their own country, it's not such a big leap to think that they are better than other countries and that others are therefore inferior. That seems to be the rationale, however much it's cloaked in nice language, of the "American exceptionalism" crowd. Or let's not forget the fact that any politician who suggests we copy the successful policies of another country would be shouted down as an America-hater, and reprimanded by the opposition for thinking that America is anything other than #1 in (fill in the blank policy).

    I see no reason to be any more proud of the accomplishments of John Adams than I am of the accomplishments of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. They were both imperfect men who did some good things. Yet I'm supposed to feel more pride in John Adams because he lived a few hundred miles from me, instead of a few thousand?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-17-11 at 04:47 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  9. #89
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Patriotism is a slightly more subtle form of nationalism, but they're basically the same. They both encourage people to think in terms of us versus them. With patriotism, people think that it's not harmful because they're just expressing how wonderful their OWN country is...which is why I drew the "white pride" analogy. If people are proud of their own country, it's not such a big leap to think that they are better than other countries and that others are therefore inferior. That seems to be the rationale, however much it's cloaked in nice language, of the "American exceptionalism" crowd. Or let's not forget the fact that any politician who suggests we copy the successful policies of another country would be shouted down as an America-hater, and reprimanded by the opposition for thinking that America is anything other than #1 in (fill in the blank policy).

    I see no reason to be any more proud of the accomplishments of John Adams than I am of the accomplishments of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. They were both imperfect men who did some good things. Yet I'm supposed to feel more pride in John Adams because he lived a few hundred miles from me, instead of a few thousand?
    The "us vs. them" mentality is part of the reason I see a strong sense of patriotism as harmful. It has enabled many people, particularly on the right, to create a strict set of requirements to being a patriot that not only sets informal restraints to free speech but also hinders national progress in a certain sense. It inspires people to make arbitrary requirements of patriotism and to blindly censor their own thoughts and speech because they reject certain ideas that have been branded "unpatriotic". We've seen stuff like this on this board, where someones definition of patriotism is used as an attack on argument.

    For example, it is often said/implied that to attempt to understand, or God forbid empathize, with members of anti-American terrorist organizations is "unpatriotic". With that label, the conversation is meant to end. It's meant to say, "By understanding and empathizing with those who killed Americans, you are a traitor of this country". It's an idea that is based in the juvenile assumption that one cannot understand and empathize with two different groups of people - that our understanding and empathy must be reserved only for "us" and never wasted upon "them". It's a dangerous assumption that has the capacity to turn an entire country into xenophobic people who are 1) unwilling to examine their nation's faults 2) unable to connect to people outside their own borders.

    There's this idea in much of the country that we cannot favor or even consider ideas that are outside a certain definition of patriotism. It's harmful and counterproductive. See Sarah Palin's infamous "real America".

  10. #90
    Politically Correct

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:33 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,850
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

    No. I would argue that blindly supporting everything your country does (in a democracy) makes you a pretty poor citizen.

Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •