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Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social programs?

Do you agree with Obama?

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Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Then you are familiar with PG county. I volunteer in schools in Suitland and I can tell you that despite being in the middle of the richest, predominately black county, in the United states...poor kids still don't realize they can succeed and they can get out. How is that possible?
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Probably for similar reasons that a woman in an abusive relationship surrounded by other women in healthy relationships still doesn't realize that she too can have a healthy relationship.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
That wasn't directed at you, so keep your's to yourself.
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mine was not a generality.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

theplaydrive said:
I and others have already said that welfare is a part of the problem. However, poverty existed before welfare and would after welfare - you give it too much credit.
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They existed under circumstances that no longer exist in America. The current reason is mainly welfare.

Poverty perpetuates itself just like wealth perpetuates itself. Both create cultures that breed/perpetuate certain mindsets.
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I agree, but why do they? Why, why, why.....why make it attractive to be poor?
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

VanceMack said:
I think you have to look at overall big picture problem solving for communites like what you described. You have to promote and teach personal and family accountability. You have to create employment opportunites...GOOD employment opportunities, not just minimum wage service jobs. People need to be able to see more at the end of the rainbow then a Mickey D's shirt with their name on it. Then promote positive education programs. Money is a part of the solution, but you can build new schools with all the best equipment...it will be trash in a few years. Its a big picture problem and it needs big picture solutions.
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I totally agree Vance. On a much larger scale, similar arguments are made for developing Third World countries. But it's much easier said than done.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

theplaydrive said:
Probably for similar reasons that a woman in an abusive relationship surrounded by other women in healthy relationships still doesn't realize that she too can have a healthy relationship.
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Because they have to be taught that they have worth..that they can do better. Handouts doesn't do that.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
They existed under circumstances that no longer exist in America. The current reason is mainly welfare.
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I think it's a combination of a lot of factors and welfare helps. I think it's education, I thinks it's the type of jobs available to poor people, I think it's the unhealthy environment with fast food and liquor stores and currency exchanges, I think it's the look of the neighborhood (litter all over the place, etc.) - I think there are a lot of "main" problems.

I agree, but why do they? Why, why, why.....why make it attractive to be poor?
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I don't think it should be attractive, which is why I think welfare problems should be replaced or amended.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Nearly everyone in America could earn enough to maintain a lower-middle class status if they were taught how too.
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Talk about naive. Got any evidence to back that claim up? Or is it more opinion?

mac said:
That is not a factor of society but is inherenet in our species. Survival of the fittest comes to mind.
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This is a factor of society and has nothing at all to do with survival of the fittest. We left that behind when we started calling ourselves "civilized."

mac said:
I agree, but social welfare programs are the largest and most powerfull of the reasons.
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Again any evidence to back this up?

mac said:
Society has changed...the reasons for poverty now are different than in the past. Lack of education and the understanding of self agency is a main cause of poverty in under developed nations, not to mention outright barriers to success against ethnic groups.
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Again any evidence?
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I am very familiar with PG county...I attend UMCP, and I am familiar with much more of the county than just college park. If PG is really the richest majority-black county in the US, then I'm scared to know what the hood actually looks like.
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Well, I grew up in harlem and bed-sty....mostly, that's a good place to start looking...
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I don't disagree with any of this. Do I think welfare plays SOME role in the perpetuation of poverty? Of course I do. My point was that if you eliminated welfare programs today, ten or twenty years from now we would still have poverty, and who knows if it would be better or worse. We live in a capitalistic society. Haves and have-nots are a known consequence of such a system.
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One of the joys of a capitalist society is that people can work their way out of poverty.

I spend 6 days a week working with both types of people...the truly needy and the type I classify as crippled dependent pets. Last night was a prime example...young woman with a TBI at age 4 and now in pretty desperate condition as an adult. She was at the end of a rope (yes...literally-not figuratively), and the family didnt know what to do anymore. She qualifies for services and desperately needs them. Unfortunately the beds and support we need are filled by the 19 year old malingerers that refuse to get the help they are offered because its easier to spend 15-20 days flopping on peoples couches with the other 10-15 days spent in funded programs because they have learned how to say "well...Im going to kill myself" and know that they are going to get 3 hot meals and a comfy bed...some medication, and can spend the bulk of their day laying around watching TV and all they have to do is a loittle dance when they interview with the pyschiatrist and social worker.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Because they have to be taught that they have worth..that they can do better. Handouts doesn't do that.
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I agree - I just don't think handouts are the main problem. I don't think there is a "main" problem. I think all the factors in American poverty have almost equal parts in perpetuating unproductive mentalities and habits.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

theplaydrive said:
I think it's a combination of a lot of factors and welfare helps. I think it's education, I thinks it's the type of jobs available to poor people, I think it's the unhealthy environment with fast food and liquor stores and currency exchanges, I think it's the look of the neighborhood (litter all over the place, etc.) - I think there are a lot of "main" problems.


I don't think it should be attractive, which is why I think welfare problems should be replaced or amended.
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Well, I'll be damned. You said something I like.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
oh lawdy lawdy, a conservative citing sociological arguments and explanations! The sky is falling...:2razz:
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Since when did sociology become the realm of liberals only? I mean I was an anthropology major, and sociology is a large part of that.

Or is it because it has the word "social" in it. :roll:
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

VanceMack said:
One of the joys of a capitalist society is that people can work their way out of poverty.

I spend 6 days a week working with both types of people...the truly needy and the type I classify as crippled dependent pets. Last night was a prime example...young woman with a TBI at age 4 and now in pretty desperate condition as an adult. She was at the end of a rope (yes...literally-not figuratively), and the family didnt know what to do anymore. She qualifies for services and desperately needs them. Unfortunately the beds and support we need are filled by the 19 year old malingerers that refuse to get the help they are offered because its easier to spend 15-20 days flopping on peoples couches with the other 10-15 days spent in funded programs because they have learned how to say "well...Im going to kill myself" and know that they are going to get 3 hot meals and a comfy bed...some medication, and can spend the bulk of their day laying around watching TV and all they have to do is a loittle dance when they interview with the pyschiatrist and social worker.
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that sucks.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Well, I'll be damned. You said something I like.
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Well, we might as well just close down the thread then.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

I think a lot of Americans would be trying to illegally immigrate into Canada if we didn't have those programs.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
Talk about naive. Got any evidence to back that claim up? Or is it more opinion?
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How is it naive? If you worked a minimum wage job, full time and didn't waste money on booze and drugs....you could do just that.

This is a factor of society and has nothing at all to do with survival of the fittest. We left that behind when we started calling ourselves "civilized."
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Society doesn't make people dumb. Genetics does that. The majority of the poor are not poor becuase they areof below average intelligence.

Again any evidence to back this up?
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There's plenty out there....mainly all the studies surroundeing the welfare reform act of 94.

Again any evidence?
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uhhh, yeah...History, cultural geography....you're going to have to do a lot of reading to catch up on those though. Wiki ain't gonna do it, bro.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
Since when did sociology become the realm of liberals only? I mean I was an anthropology major, and sociology is a large part of that.

Or is it because it has the word "social" in it. :roll:
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Let's just say, I've had a history of trying to use sociology and sociological data to debate conservatives on issues of race and class. Often my arguments are dismissed out of hand: "Sociology assumes all whites are racist anyway, blah blah blah."
 
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Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
Since when did sociology become the realm of liberals only? I mean I was an anthropology major, and sociology is a large part of that.

Or is it because it has the word "social" in it. :roll:
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Sociology was my minor....and most people here think I'm a right-winger.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I totally agree Vance. On a much larger scale, similar arguments are made for developing Third World countries. But it's much easier said than done.
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I think it is actually at least as doable as sayable. But it requires a shift in mindset. We have to invest more in long term ideology than in short term handout quickfixes. We need to allow a few bad apples to be tossed and rot. We need more personal responsibility. We need to stop the class warfare bull**** that is perpetuated by people that profit from it (community organizers and politicians) and we need to promote success, to encourage the return of the industrial base (which sorry leftists of the world...but that means more corporate tax breaks to entice them to bring jobs BACK). We dont need EVERY job to be an inudstrial job, but industry jobs create opportunities for other good paying service based jobs. Industrial jobs create better consumers which means more purchases of homes, car's and other high dollar items.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Sociology was my minor....and most people here think I'm a right-winger.
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Until you start debating real right-wing idiots like Amazed.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
How is it naive? If you worked a minimum wage job, full time and didn't waste money on booze and drugs....you could do just that.
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So no evidence? And no, you could not make it into the middle class lower or sub basement at around $7.00 an hour. Thats a little over $1000.00 a month. Good luck paying rent, electric, water, any kind of repairs for anything, cloths, medical, car, GAS.

Sorry no cigar.

Yes naive.

mac said:
Society doesn't make people dumb. Genetics does that. The majority of the poor are not poor becuase they areof below average intelligence.
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Nice assumption. I did not say anything about below average intelligence. I said because they are not as smart as others. As in who are you going to hire?

mac said:
There's plenty out there....mainly all the studies surroundeing the welfare reform act of 94.
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And yet you have not posted a single shred that says it is the main cause of poverty in the US.

Keep digging.

mac said:
uhhh, yeah...History, cultural geography....you're going to have to do a lot of reading to catch up on those though. Wiki ain't gonna do it, bro.
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It's not wikki, and it is evidence. Something you have yet to provide. :2wave:
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
Let's just say, I've had a history of trying to use sociology and sociological to debate conservatives on issues of race and class. Often my arguments are dismissed out of hand: "Sociology assumes all whites are racist anyway, blah blah blah."
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Not my fault they are stupid. ;)
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
Until you start debating real right-wing idiots like Amazed.
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The problem is most people who say they are conservative are really just Republicans. Partisan hacks to be certain.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
Until you start debating real right-wing idiots like Amazed.
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Good point....
 
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