View Poll Results: Do you agree with Obama?

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Thread: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social programs?

  1. #141
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I think that if you took the money from social welfare and put it into education, then we would cure the problem. I would even go so far as having schools feed children on our dime if they are attending and succeeding.
    I agree that education in poor neighborhoods is definitely a problem, but in my opinion the endemic issues concerning such schools go much deeper than just a lack of funding. I live near DC, a city in which both federal and local governments have continually tried to throw money at the problem with limited success. I admit you probably have more experience than I do because I grew up in a upper-middle class school district, but I think the main problems with schools in poor districts are mostly structural and cultural, with money/funding as a secondary issue.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #142
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    ????

    There are other reasons besides welfare....

    #1 We live in a nation that is capitalistic. Poor and rich are consequences of that.
    Nearly everyone in America could earn enough to maintain a lower-middle class status if they were taught how too.

    #2 Some unfortunate citizens are just not that bright and will never earn more than minimum wage.
    That is not a factor of society but is inherenet in our species. Survival of the fittest comes to mind.

    #3 Some are born into poverty and see no way out.
    This is part of what I have been saying.

    Many more reasons exist for poverty, their is no one answer.
    I agree, but social welfare programs are the largest and most powerfull of the reasons.

    The reason poor blacks exist? Again many reasons and most do not involve welfare. I mean why did poor people exist before welfare? Why do we have poor people in nations without welfare? I mean please, use logic.
    Society has changed...the reasons for poverty now are different than in the past. Lack of education and the understanding of self agency is a main cause of poverty in under developed nations, not to mention outright barriers to success against ethnic groups.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  3. #143
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think poverty perpetuates itself just fine without social programs. Poverty has existed throughout the whole history of human civilization, with or without social programs.
    Heres the thing about/...say...panhandlers. Panhandlers exist because people are willing to drop coins in their little cups. And hey...standing on street corners takes a lot out of you...its not that they COULDNT do something different. Its that they have learned they dont HAVE to. Some goes for shelters and other community support organizations. You know which communities have fewer problems with homlessness? The ones that dont have homeless programs.

    There are some people that have a legit need for social service programs. Unfortunately we as a society are so completely choked by providing for people that DONT need them that we dont have adequate resources for those that truly do. A lot of that is individual failing, a lot of it is family, but a lot of the responsbility lies at the feet of those that profit off of giving excuses for individual failings and then going out of their way to keep those people dependent. Politicians, drug companies, county and state contracted mental health units, medical doctors and psychiatrists...lots of blame to spread around. But it starts with the individual.

  4. #144
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It is a little of both. Your answer as is Mac's are far to simplistic. No one reason is responsible.
    that was my point. of course it's not simple.
    Last edited by liblady; 04-15-11 at 11:07 AM.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  5. #145
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Anecdotal evidence accounts for little in the realm of debate other than an opinion. The facts and logic directly contradict your opinion.



    Drugs are a symptom, parenting is not nor in mentoring.

    We are not talking about "symptoms" we are talking about causes.

    Poverty is an exceptionally complicated social phenomenon, and trying to discover its causes is equally complicated. The stereotypic (and simplistic) explanation persists—that the poor cause their own poverty—based on the notion that anything is possible in America. Some theorists have accused the poor of having little concern for the future and preferring to “live for the moment”; others have accused them of engaging in self-defeating behavior. Still other theorists have characterized the poor as fatalists, resigning themselves to a culture of poverty in which nothing can be done to change their economic outcomes. In this culture of poverty—which passes from generation to generation—the poor feel negative, inferior, passive, hopeless, and powerless.

    The “blame the poor” perspective is stereotypic and not applicable to all of the underclass. Not only are most poor people able and willing to work hard, they do so when given the chance. The real trouble has to do with such problems as minimum wages and lack of access to the education necessary for obtaining a better-paying job.

    More recently, sociologists have focused on other theories of poverty. One theory of poverty has to do with the flight of the middle class, including employers, from the cities and into the suburbs. This has limited the opportunities for the inner-city poor to find adequate jobs. According to another theory, the poor would rather receive welfare payments than work in demeaning positions as maids or in fast-food restaurants. As a result of this view, the welfare system has come under increasing attack in recent years.

    Again, no simple explanations for or solutions to the problem of poverty exist. Although varying theories abound, sociologists will continue to pay attention to this issue in the years to come.
    - Sociology: Causes and Effects of Poverty - CliffsNotes

    In the end welfare is just one of many complicated reasons for poverty and the perpetuation of poverty.
    oh lawdy lawdy, a conservative citing sociological arguments and explanations! The sky is falling...
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #146
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree that education in poor neighborhoods is definitely a problem, but in my opinion the endemic issues concerning such schools go much deeper than just a lack of funding. I live near DC, a city in which both federal and local governments have continually tried to throw money at the problem with limited success. I admit you probably have more experience than I do because I grew up in a upper-middle class school district, but I think the main problems with schools in poor districts are mostly structural and cultural, with money/funding as a secondary issue.
    Then you are familiar with PG county. I volunteer in schools in Suitland and I can tell you that despite being in the middle of the richest, predominately black county, in the United states...poor kids still don't realize they can succeed and they can get out. How is that possible?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  7. #147
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Heres the thing about/...say...panhandlers. Panhandlers exist because people are willing to drop coins in their little cups. And hey...standing on street corners takes a lot out of you...its not that they COULDNT do something different. Its that they have learned they dont HAVE to. Some goes for shelters and other community support organizations. You know which communities have fewer problems with homlessness? The ones that dont have homeless programs.

    There are some people that have a legit need for social service programs. Unfortunately we as a society are so completely choked by providing for people that DONT need them that we dont have adequate resources for those that truly do. A lot of that is individual failing, a lot of it is family, but a lot of the responsbility lies at the feet of those that profit off of giving excuses for individual failings and then going out of their way to keep those people dependent. Politicians, drug companies, county and state contracted mental health units, medical doctors and psychiatrists...lots of blame to spread around. But it starts with the individual.
    I don't disagree with any of this. Do I think welfare plays SOME role in the perpetuation of poverty? Of course I do. My point was that if you eliminated welfare programs today, ten or twenty years from now we would still have poverty, and who knows if it would be better or worse. We live in a capitalistic society. Haves and have-nots are a known consequence of such a system.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  8. #148
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree that education in poor neighborhoods is definitely a problem, but in my opinion the endemic issues concerning such schools go much deeper than just a lack of funding. I live near DC, a city in which both federal and local governments have continually tried to throw money at the problem with limited success. I admit you probably have more experience than I do because I grew up in a upper-middle class school district, but I think the main problems with schools in poor districts are mostly structural and cultural, with money/funding as a secondary issue.
    I think you have to look at overall big picture problem solving for communites like what you described. You have to promote and teach personal and family accountability. You have to create employment opportunites...GOOD employment opportunities, not just minimum wage service jobs. People need to be able to see more at the end of the rainbow then a Mickey D's shirt with their name on it. Then promote positive education programs. Money is a part of the solution, but you can build new schools with all the best equipment...it will be trash in a few years. Its a big picture problem and it needs big picture solutions.

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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Lack of ambition. Why would they want to work a job that pays them less than welfare?
    I and others have already said that welfare is a part of the problem. However, poverty existed before welfare and would after welfare - you give it too much credit.

    Poverty has no means of perpetuating itself. There is no glamour too it, no attraction. Poverty is caused...not replicated.
    Poverty perpetuates itself just like wealth perpetuates itself. Both create cultures that breed/perpetuate certain mindsets.

  10. #150
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Then you are familiar with PG county. I volunteer in schools in Suitland and I can tell you that despite being in the middle of the richest, predominately black county, in the United states...poor kids still don't realize they can succeed and they can get out. How is that possible?
    I am very familiar with PG county...I attend UMCP, and I am familiar with much more of the county than just college park. If PG is really the richest majority-black county in the US, then I'm scared to know what the hood actually looks like.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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