View Poll Results: Do you agree with Obama?

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  • Yes, I agree.

    39 32.77%
  • No, I disagree.

    80 67.23%
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Thread: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social programs?

  1. #131
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No you're not. You're trying to find reasons other than welfare to blame on the perpetuation of poverty. If our social programs work so well, why are there still poor Americans?
    I've admitted in several threads that social welfare is a problem - which I why I want revisions. I just acknowledge that poverty would exist without social welfare programs - this means that social welfare is neither the sole nor the biggest problem.

  2. #132
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    And then we're back where we started. Why don't people want to get out?
    Lack of ambition. Why would they want to work a job that pays them less than welfare?

    Your answer is social welfare problems. My answer is poverty. Obviously some social welfare problems encourage lack of ambition, which is why I support some version of "workfare" or a time limit on welfare. Nonetheless, social welfare is not the sole, or even the biggest, factor; it's the culture that poverty creates. Some people get out that culture, just like some people in wealthy environments get out of theirs and end up dirt poor. Nonetheless, general rules hold for both cultures and the general rules for people in poverty go far beyond social welfare.
    Poverty has no means of perpetuating itself. There is no glamour too it, no attraction. Poverty is caused...not replicated.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  3. #133
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think poverty perpetuates itself just fine without social programs. Poverty has existed throughout the whole history of human civilization, with or without social programs.
    For different reasons....now...the reason is mainly (too be fair) social wlefare programs.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  4. #134
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    This is a personal opinion of mine - one that I've held for awhile but rarely shared by others. How many people here consider the military a "social program?" I do. Not a "socialist" or a "welfare" program, mind you, but a social program in that it provides opportunities for some to climb the socioeconomic ladder that they might otherwise not have.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-15-11 at 10:56 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  5. #135
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No you're not. You're trying to find reasons other than welfare to blame on the perpetuation of poverty. If our social programs work so well, why are there still poor Americans?
    ????

    There are other reasons besides welfare....

    #1 We live in a nation that is capitalistic. Poor and rich are consequences of that.
    #2 Some unfortunate citizens are just not that bright and will never earn more than minimum wage.
    #3 Some are born into poverty and see no way out.

    Many more reasons exist for poverty, their is no one answer.

    The reason poor blacks exist? Again many reasons and most do not involve welfare. I mean why did poor people exist before welfare? Why do we have poor people in nations without welfare? I mean please, use logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #136
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Define great.

    I think a country can be judged, just like a person, by how "he treats the least of us." I would hate to live in a country that didn't care enough for its poor or its seniors to provide them with the basic necessities of life.
    Why don't you provide for your parents instead of expecting others to provide for them?

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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    For different reasons....now...the reason is mainly (too be fair) social wlefare programs.
    I don't disagree with you mac that welfare programs promote a "handout" or "entitlement" culture, so to speak. But is it really your opinion that poverty in this country would decrease if you got rid of TANF, other welfare programs, etc?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  8. #138
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    This is a personal opinion of mine - one that I've held for awhile but rarely shared by others. How many people here consider the military a "social program?" I do. Not a "socialist" or a "welfare" program, mind you, but a social program in that it provides opportunities for some to climb the socioeconomic ladder that they might otherwise not have.
    I understand what you are saying. I don't consider it one despite the fact that it offers nearly every American a means to raise above poverty. The reason I say it is not is that it provides a career...a career in which one must strive very hard to hold on too.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  9. #139
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't disagree with you mac that welfare programs promote a "handout" or "entitlement" culture, so to speak. But is it really your opinion that poverty in this country would decrease if you got rid of TANF, other welfare programs, etc?
    I think that if you took the money from social welfare and put it into education, then we would cure the problem. I would even go so far as having schools feed children on our dime if they are attending and succeeding.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  10. #140
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    Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Of course there are variables, I agree. From what I saw personally, however, welfare is the most effective agent in the perpetuation of poverty.
    Anecdotal evidence accounts for little in the realm of debate other than an opinion. The facts and logic directly contradict your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    We could spend all day talking about drugs, mentorship...parenting, etc...but these are mostly symptoms.
    Drugs are a symptom, parenting is not nor in mentoring.

    We are not talking about "symptoms" we are talking about causes.

    Poverty is an exceptionally complicated social phenomenon, and trying to discover its causes is equally complicated. The stereotypic (and simplistic) explanation persists—that the poor cause their own poverty—based on the notion that anything is possible in America. Some theorists have accused the poor of having little concern for the future and preferring to “live for the moment”; others have accused them of engaging in self-defeating behavior. Still other theorists have characterized the poor as fatalists, resigning themselves to a culture of poverty in which nothing can be done to change their economic outcomes. In this culture of poverty—which passes from generation to generation—the poor feel negative, inferior, passive, hopeless, and powerless.

    The “blame the poor” perspective is stereotypic and not applicable to all of the underclass. Not only are most poor people able and willing to work hard, they do so when given the chance. The real trouble has to do with such problems as minimum wages and lack of access to the education necessary for obtaining a better-paying job.

    More recently, sociologists have focused on other theories of poverty. One theory of poverty has to do with the flight of the middle class, including employers, from the cities and into the suburbs. This has limited the opportunities for the inner-city poor to find adequate jobs. According to another theory, the poor would rather receive welfare payments than work in demeaning positions as maids or in fast-food restaurants. As a result of this view, the welfare system has come under increasing attack in recent years.

    Again, no simple explanations for or solutions to the problem of poverty exist. Although varying theories abound, sociologists will continue to pay attention to this issue in the years to come.
    - Sociology: Causes and Effects of Poverty - CliffsNotes

    In the end welfare is just one of many complicated reasons for poverty and the perpetuation of poverty.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-15-11 at 11:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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