View Poll Results: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    11 37.93%
  • No

    14 48.28%
  • Don't Know

    4 13.79%
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 66

Thread: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

  1. #51
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    dimensionally transcendental
    Last Seen
    08-15-11 @ 04:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,153

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I was wrong, but am not terrible surprised. From the article:
    "Spin can't change the fact that (the) Republicans' plan reopens the doughnut hole, costing seniors more than $2 billion next year alone," said Jon Summers, spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. "No matter what they say, the fact is the GOP wants to finance their tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires by hiking prescription drug prices for seniors."

    If that statement is true, this is going to hurt republicans badly.
    Doesn't it still have to go through the Senate...have a vote there... and then have that version reconciled with this one...all before Obama gets it? If he has issues still at that point, he could always refuse to sign it, couldn't he?

  2. #52
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,683

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Ryan knows full well it is unpassable. It's just a political stunt to have democrats oppose a big spending cut bill. Thank god it is unpassable since it would have absolutely horrible effects on the country.
    It would have a horrible effect on the future election prospects of the dems. all those programs that create dem voters would get serious cutting



  3. #53
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:22 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,326
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Doesn't it still have to go through the Senate...have a vote there... and then have that version reconciled with this one...all before Obama gets it? If he has issues still at that point, he could always refuse to sign it, couldn't he?
    Yes, but I am thinking with that comment in terms of election issues. Going to try and do some quick research on the comment and discover if it is true.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  4. #54
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:22 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,326
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Hockey game starting, so not going to find the whole story right now, however it does look that under the health care reform bill from last year the Plan B would be slowly removed, under Ryan's plan it is repealed immediately. Will look after hockey and try and get actual language and not people's description kinda thing.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #55
    Mod Conspiracy Theorist
    rocket88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    A very blue state
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,165

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Doesn't it still have to go through the Senate...have a vote there... and then have that version reconciled with this one...all before Obama gets it? If he has issues still at that point, he could always refuse to sign it, couldn't he?
    Which is why this is just a starting point for what's actually going to happen. So before Liberals start talking about the end of the world and Conservatives have to wipe the ejaculate off of their keyboard, THIS IS NOT LAW YET.

    How's that for the Constitution?

  6. #56
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,115

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So it's not a tax break, it's only a tax cut. Yes, that makes it sound much better.
    it's a rate cut, not a tax cut. it's tax neutral in its' effect because it also closes loopholes and credits used by the rich to avoid taxation. just as the Presidents' own Bi-Partisan Commission suggested. In fact, the Ryan budget's top tax rate is higher than they suggested.

    as a quick example, let' us say that you earn 100,000 and are taxed at a rate of 25%, but you are able to write off $10,000 because you've invested it in "green energy". if I lower your tax rate by $2,500 a year, but also get rid of that loophole; then the actual check that you send the IRS will not change one penny. and so you haven't gotten a tax cut - you've recieved a rate cut that achieved tax neutrality.

    Just as the Ryan budget does.

    That is why I said if it was true. I do not know for sure, but pardon me if I don't take your word for it. Now, the effect of the plan on those under 55 is dramatic and painful.
    not really. in addition to giving future retirees plenty of time to plan (which the Presidents'plan does not), it also means-tests Medicare to provide more support for poor seniors and less support for wealthy ones. in addition, by allowing them to direct their own Medicare dollars, it allows Seniors to lessen the impact by focusing the money where they individually need it most.

    No, the difference is that Ryan's plan forces seniors to buy private insurance and gives them money for it. The CBO was absolutely brutal about this. Just because something needs to be done does not mean that this is the right thing to do.
    and the President's plan is just to start denying coverage for services. as for the CBO's "brutality", what i saw is that they said it would cost Seniors more - which, if they choose to maintain higher levels of coverage, is correct. however, it is very likely that their figures overshoot what the actual cost will be - Medicare D (which this plan basically is) ended up costing 40% less than the CBO said it would, thanks to the competitive power of the market.

    what the CBO doesn't discuss, however, (and this - as above- is because they are stuck with static scoring), is that this reverses the effect that Medicare has had on overall healthcosts for the past half-century.

    Ryan's plan, known as premium support, would gradually bring down health costs and spending, but it's a "cut" only in the sense of slowing the rate of growth. The premium support subsidy—for seniors to choose from a list of regulated private health plans—would start at $15,000 a year and increase annually. It is also means-tested to provide more help for lower-income seniors...

    Economists from the center-left to center-right have been recommending premium support for decades, and it was first proposed by Stanford's Alain Enthoven in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1978. Some version has since been endorsed by everyone from President Clinton's 1999 Medicare commission, chaired by Democrat John Breaux, to Bob Dole and Tom Daschle in 2009. Another iteration was floated this week by a group of Nobel laureates including Ned Phelps, Vernon Smith and George Akerlof.

    The core economic distortion in the current health market is that consumers rarely have the incentive to seek the best value for their money. By capping the Medicare subsidy, seniors would pay for the marginal costs of their care, promoting competitive insurance. That would in turn incrementally change how doctors and hospitals provide care, encouraging competition in price and quality...

    But the key point is that premium support would reduce health costs over time by changing the incentives of the health market. MIT economist Amy Finkelstein's research suggests that Medicare's 1965 creation led to market-wide changes that explain about half of the increase in real per capita health spending between 1950 and 1990. Mr. Ryan's plan would be as consequential in reverse...

    but as CBO brutality goes, i would say their point that the President's plan actually saves NO MONEY is a bit rougher.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-15-11 at 08:58 PM.

  7. #57
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:22 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,326
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Cp, saying it is tax neutral does not mean there are not tax cuts in it. It cuts taxes for those who are in tax brackets over 25 %.

    Bill text: Bill Text - 112th Congress (2011-2012) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

    As best I can tell, this does not reform medicare, or Social Security. It just says that congress plans to do it. Does any one else have any better info on that? Am I reading it right?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  8. #58
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:22 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,326
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not really. in addition to giving future retirees plenty of time to plan (which the Presidents'plan does not), it also means-tests Medicare to provide more support for poor seniors and less support for wealthy ones. in addition, by allowing them to direct their own Medicare dollars, it allows Seniors to lessen the impact by focusing the money where they individually need it most.
    The CBO says that it will increase the impact on seniors. Period. You cannot spin that positively. They get a voucher that will not cover the cost of their insurance, the cost will be higher due to Medicare being more efficient than private insurance and Medicare not needing to be profitable, and does nothing to address rising costs. This plan will further significantly increase insurance costs for every one, as the CBO points out, and again, significantly.



    and the President's plan is just to start denying coverage for services. as for the CBO's "brutality", what i saw is that they said it would cost Seniors more - which, if they choose to maintain higher levels of coverage, is correct. however, it is very likely that their figures overshoot what the actual cost will be - Medicare D (which this plan basically is) ended up costing 40% less than the CBO said it would, thanks to the competitive power of the market.

    what the CBO doesn't discuss, however, (and this - as above- is because they are stuck with static scoring), is that this reverses the effect that Medicare has had on overall healthcosts for the past half-century.

    Ryan's plan, known as premium support, would gradually bring down health costs and spending, but it's a "cut" only in the sense of slowing the rate of growth. The premium support subsidy—for seniors to choose from a list of regulated private health plans—would start at $15,000 a year and increase annually. It is also means-tested to provide more help for lower-income seniors...

    Economists from the center-left to center-right have been recommending premium support for decades, and it was first proposed by Stanford's Alain Enthoven in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1978. Some version has since been endorsed by everyone from President Clinton's 1999 Medicare commission, chaired by Democrat John Breaux, to Bob Dole and Tom Daschle in 2009. Another iteration was floated this week by a group of Nobel laureates including Ned Phelps, Vernon Smith and George Akerlof.

    The core economic distortion in the current health market is that consumers rarely have the incentive to seek the best value for their money. By capping the Medicare subsidy, seniors would pay for the marginal costs of their care, promoting competitive insurance. That would in turn incrementally change how doctors and hospitals provide care, encouraging competition in price and quality...

    But the key point is that premium support would reduce health costs over time by changing the incentives of the health market. MIT economist Amy Finkelstein's research suggests that Medicare's 1965 creation led to market-wide changes that explain about half of the increase in real per capita health spending between 1950 and 1990. Mr. Ryan's plan would be as consequential in reverse...

    but as CBO brutality goes, i would say their point that the President's plan actually saves NO MONEY is a bit rougher.
    Instead of pointing to what some conservatives are saying about it, let's look at the CBO report itself. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/121xx/doc...yan_Letter.pdf

    A private health insurance plan covering the standardized benefit would, CBO estimates,
    be more expensive currently than traditional Medicare. Both administrative
    costs (including profits) and payment rates to providers are higher for private plans
    than for Medicare. Those higher costs would be offset partly but not fully by savings
    from lower utilization stemming from two sources. First, private health insurers
    would probably impose greater utilization management than occurs in Medicare. Second,
    private plans might restrict enrollees’ ability to purchase supplemental insurance
    plans; enrollees would thus face higher out-of-pocket costs than they do in Medicare,
    and that increased cost sharing would encourage lower utilization. On net, for a typical
    65-year-old in 2011, CBO estimates that average spending in traditional Medicare
    will be 89 percent of (that is, 11 percent less than) the spending that would occur if
    that same package of benefits was purchased from a private insurer (see Figure 1).16
    Moreover, CBO projects that total health care spending for a typical beneficiary covered
    by the standardized benefit under the proposal would grow faster than such
    spending for the same beneficiary in traditional Medicare under either of CBO’s longterm
    scenarios. For the period before 2030, the difference in projected growth rates
    occurs primarily because CBO expects that the payments to providers in Medicare
    will grow more slowly (especially under the extended-baseline scenario) than those in
    the private market.
    In other words, the cost of health care goes up, and continues to rise faster than benefits rise. It continues on from there. However, as I pointed out in the post above, it does not appear this part of the plan has passed yet.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  9. #59
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,115

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Cp, saying it is tax neutral does not mean there are not tax cuts in it. It cuts taxes for those who are in tax brackets over 25 %.
    no, cuts rates. if they are paying the same (and they are), then it hasn't cut their taxes

    As best I can tell, this does not reform medicare, or Social Security. It just says that congress plans to do it. Does any one else have any better info on that? Am I reading it right?
    (2) For future generations, when they reach eligibility, Medicare is reformed to provide a premium support payment and a selection of guaranteed health coverage options from which recipients can choose a plan that best suits their needs.

    (3) Medicare will provide additional assistance for lower-income beneficiaries and those with greater health risks.

    ...

    (1)(A) if in any year the Board of Trustees of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund in its annual Trustees' Report determines that the 75-year actuarial balance of the Social Security Trust Funds is in deficit, and the annual balance of the Social Security Trust Funds in the 75th year is in deficit, the Board of Trustees should, not later than September 30 of the same calendar year, submit to the President recommendations for statutory reforms necessary to achieve a positive 75-year actuarial balance and a positive annual balance in the 75th year;





    so yeah, it punts on social security, but reforms Medicare.

  10. #60
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:22 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,326
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will the House ever pass the Ryan budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, cuts rates. if they are paying the same (and they are), then it hasn't cut their taxes
    But for most in the affected group, it will cut taxes.



    (2) For future generations, when they reach eligibility, Medicare is reformed to provide a premium support payment and a selection of guaranteed health coverage options from which recipients can choose a plan that best suits their needs.

    (3) Medicare will provide additional assistance for lower-income beneficiaries and those with greater health risks.

    ...

    (1)(A) if in any year the Board of Trustees of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund in its annual Trustees' Report determines that the 75-year actuarial balance of the Social Security Trust Funds is in deficit, and the annual balance of the Social Security Trust Funds in the 75th year is in deficit, the Board of Trustees should, not later than September 30 of the same calendar year, submit to the President recommendations for statutory reforms necessary to achieve a positive 75-year actuarial balance and a positive annual balance in the 75th year;





    so yeah, it punts on social security, but reforms Medicare.
    No, it actually punts on Medicare too. This is the passed version in it's entirety on Medicare:

    SEC. 501. POLICY STATEMENT ON MEDICARE.

    (a) Findings- The House finds the following:

    (1) More than 46 million Americans depend on Medicare for their health security.

    (2) The Medicare Trustees report has repeatedly recommended that Medicare's long-term financial challenges be addressed soon. Each year without reform, the financial condition of Medicare becomes more precarious and the threat to those in and near retirement becomes more pronounced. According to the Congressional Budget Office--

    (A) the Hospital Insurance Trust Fund will be exhausted in 2020 and unable to pay scheduled benefits; and

    (B) Medicare spending is growing faster than the economy. Medicare outlays are currently rising at a rate of 7.2 percent per year, and under CBO's alternative fiscal scenario, mandatory spending on Medicare is projected to reach 7 percent of GDP by 2035 and 14 percent of GDP by 2080.

    (3) Failing to address this problem will leave millions of American seniors without adequate health security and younger generations burdened with enormous debt to pay for spending levels that cannot be sustained.

    (b) Policy on Medicare Reform- It is the policy of this resolution to protect those in and near retirement from any disruptions to their Medicare benefits and offer future beneficiaries the same health care options available to Members of Congress.

    (c) Assumptions- This resolution assumes reform of the Medicare program such that:

    (1) Current Medicare benefits are preserved for those in and near retirement, without changes.

    (2) For future generations, when they reach eligibility, Medicare is reformed to provide a premium support payment and a selection of guaranteed health coverage options from which recipients can choose a plan that best suits their needs.

    (3) Medicare will provide additional assistance for lower-income beneficiaries and those with greater health risks.

    (4) Medicare spending is put on a sustainable path and the Medicare program becomes solvent over the long-term.
    In other words...we will do this, but not now.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •