View Poll Results: Is it legal for govmnts to take on debt on bahalf of taxpayers without approval?

Voters
9. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, its illegal and absurd.

    0 0%
  • No, in a real democracy it should not be possible.

    2 22.22%
  • No, it should only be possible with popular approval, yet minimised and only in extreme situations.

    3 33.33%
  • No, but the west is not democracy.

    2 22.22%
  • It may be legal under some circumstances

    0 0%
  • It should be legal under some circumstances.

    1 11.11%
  • It should be like it is

    0 0%
  • I dont know

    0 0%
  • other opinion (specify in post)

    1 11.11%
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Thread: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

  1. #11
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The reason both parties support taking on more debt is because that's what the voters have wanted
    Really? Says which referendum, says which national poll? Or is it just your opinion that even though the population has never been heard they want the politicians to take on more debt.

    I fail to see where the population ever asked the politicians to take on loans on their behalf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I've never heard of anything more than isolated incidents of vote-buying in any modern democracy, not anything systemic. Maybe it frequently happens in Nigeria, but not here.
    Are you really so blind and naive? The whole US election is about money. Its a systemic problem. First the president to be buys a place into the presidential race, then he buys of the population with the best tax cuts that the nation cannot afford.

    You know the corruption of the election process in the US.
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  2. #12
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    They take on debt for varying reasons.. The republicans take on debt to lower taxs or not to raise them, the democrats take on debt to give stuff away...the bottom line combines the two...they take on debt to make themselves look good to thier constituencies to get re elected and last but not least its not their money so they dont give a chit

  3. #13
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Really? Says which referendum, says which national poll? Or is it just your opinion that even though the population has never been heard they want the politicians to take on more debt.

    I fail to see where the population ever asked the politicians to take on loans on their behalf.
    If that isn't what the voters wanted, then they wouldn't vote for candidates who supported that platform. It's that simple. Democracies may not always do what is immediately popular, but in the long term democracies will respond to the basic desires of the voters. If a balanced budget was a major issue for most voters, one or both of the parties would have adopted it as their platform a long time ago.
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    I believe people have the responsibility to know whether or not their national budget can afford such promises and the people ought to be able to conclude if a debt is necessary to fund these promised which they will have to pay eventually.
    Really? So even if the debt is 50% of national GDP, or 7 trillion dollar for the US or 1.5 trillion Euro for Germany, is it still okay because it is affordable? In the US that is interest rates of several hundred billions a year, that the population pays to banks and financial institutions, just because it is affordable to have the debt. It is affordable for me to have debt as well, but its not clever, its much better not to have debt, and just because you can pay it does not mean its affordable.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    So by electing the politician who promises, they are in essence voting on the debt itself.
    That is such a lie. You know it as well as me, politicians will say anything to get elected. George W Bush took on the biggest amount of debt in US history and ran the biggest budget deficit, where in his program did it say that he would do that?
    Obama said Bush had run up big debt and deficit, that it was wrong and that change was needed. Where in his program did it say that Obama would take on an even bigger debt and deficit than Bush, and bring everything debt and deficits to new historical highs?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    The problem is that ALL of the people have to pay for the majority's vote... and as the case is, that majority in the US aren't the ones paying the majority of that debt back.
    And this my friend is the problem with party politics. You have no say on the politics itself, you have no influence on what will happen policy wise. You just get to majority vote on one of two parties and the presidential liars and hope things will change in your direction. Much like playing the lottery.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    So have the people voted on it? Yes.
    Lie lie lie. The people has never voted on any policies. They get a choice of two pretty similar set of policies and then can vote on the parties. In the end it will not matter which party they vote for since most policies will happen no matter what they vote.

    When will you realise that democracy is the biggest scam in history.
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    They take on debt for varying reasons.. The republicans take on debt to lower taxs or not to raise them, the democrats take on debt to give stuff away...the bottom line combines the two...they take on debt to make themselves look good to thier constituencies to get re elected and last but not least its not their money so they dont give a chit
    Yes yes yes. And that is the problem! Finally one that sees it.
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If that isn't what the voters wanted, then they wouldn't vote for candidates who supported that platform. It's that simple. Democracies may not always do what is immediately popular, but in the long term democracies will respond to the basic desires of the voters. If a balanced budget was a major issue for most voters, one or both of the parties would have adopted it as their platform a long time ago.
    Ok. My answer to that is this...
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1059422008 (National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?)
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Really? So even if the debt is 50% of national GDP, or 7 trillion dollar for the US or 1.5 trillion Euro for Germany, is it still okay because it is affordable? In the US that is interest rates of several hundred billions a year, that the population pays to banks and financial institutions, just because it is affordable to have the debt. It is affordable for me to have debt as well, but its not clever, its much better not to have debt, and just because you can pay it does not mean its affordable.



    That is such a lie. You know it as well as me, politicians will say anything to get elected. George W Bush took on the biggest amount of debt in US history and ran the biggest budget deficit, where in his program did it say that he would do that?
    Obama said Bush had run up big debt and deficit, that it was wrong and that change was needed. Where in his program did it say that Obama would take on an even bigger debt and deficit than Bush, and bring everything debt and deficits to new historical highs?



    And this my friend is the problem with party politics. You have no say on the politics itself, you have no influence on what will happen policy wise. You just get to majority vote on one of two parties and the presidential liars and hope things will change in your direction. Much like playing the lottery.



    Lie lie lie. The people has never voted on any policies. They get a choice of two pretty similar set of policies and then can vote on the parties. In the end it will not matter which party they vote for since most policies will happen no matter what they vote.

    When will you realise that democracy is the biggest scam in history.
    Please allow me to clarify. I was NOT saying that I believe the debt is affordable. I do NOT think it's affordable. But what I did say was that I do think it is the voters' responsibility to RESEARCH political promises purely because they are all lies. Before I vote, I determine what is possible within what I believe is reasonable (which is ZERO debt, btw). And so the majority disagrees with me, hence our current condition, but I believe they DID vote for it. I personally haven't voted for a major party candidate, EVER.

  8. #18
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    I agree with that, except, how are regular voters suppose to keep up with the issues and political cases if they never received any political or economically relevant education. In addition how can they do that taken into consideration that politics have become all about hiding the reality and never informing the public about anything important?
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    The legal concept of debt is something that only exists through the state, so the idea that it does not have the authority to incur debt makes no sense. It is also logistically impossible, since the operation of payrolls, the acquisition of materiel, and the discharge of services requires an ongoing balance of accounts that is sometimes positive and sometimes negative. Sometimes the state owes money to a person, organization, or foreign entity, and sometimes it is owed money. This debt is not something that physically exists independent of the authority of the state, but is 100% a product of it. The debt exists only insofar as the state credibly promises to pay it, or has the power to collect it when it is a negative debt (i.e., a credit). To claim that debt is illegal is to say that government is illegal, and that is pure anarchist nonsense.

  10. #20
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    Re: National/state/local political and budget debt, is it democratically legal?

    So, its okay for the state to "pay for today with tomorrow"?

    And it is okay for them to incur interest rate costs on the taxpayers to the banks and financial institutions, basically transferring wealth from workers to banks and financial institutions?
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