View Poll Results: Will you go see the Atlas Shrugged movie?

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Thread: Atlas Shrugged movie

  1. #221
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Right. Valuing yourself at the expense of others is called "selfishness," so if one has such a value system we call them "selfish." People who value others more than themselves are being logical when they sacrifice for others, and this is morally laudable.
    Why is it logical?
    What if your family suffers from your sacrifice more than the family of the person you saved?


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Please cease conflating the terms "selfish" and "self interested." We both agree that they describe different things, so it gets confusing. You might think it is dumb to sacrifice oneself for a stranger, and it is "self interested" in a strict sense, but we can both agree that self sacrifice is the very definition of unselfish.

    Why is it good to value others over ones own self? There are a variety of rationales to explain this. I'm not trying to convert anybody. You either find this proposition persuasive or you do not. If you do not then you are selfish.
    If you sacrifice yourself solely for the benefit of yourself it could be considered selfish.
    Whether it be for religious reasons or something else.
    Like the thought that, self sacrifice gets you an automatic ticket to heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I don't think anybody is advocating reckless. I'm talking about reasoned selflessness. Reason is what separates humanity from animals. The animal nature compels one to act in their own selfish interest, with no concern for others. But true reason dictates that we aspire to a higher good, and that every action we perform is part of a universal whole.

    What Randians fail to account for is the fact that the self really is an arbitrary point of view. Just because your subjective experience is what you personally feel, what makes it more valuable than the subjective experience of another? Rationally, all subjective experiences (all people) should be given equal moral weight, whether they be one's self or another one's self.
    Is it selfless to save a stranger over your wife, why?
    If someone chooses not to, is it selfish why?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  2. #222
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why is it logical?
    What if your family suffers from your sacrifice more than the family of the person you saved?
    This is straying pretty far from a discussion of Randianism. A Randian values other people, including family only insofar as they are pleasing or beneficial to one's self. The Randian position of self-primacy is only logical if setting the self as the focal point can be justified. It cannot. Why is another person less valuable than one's own self? This is arbitrary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If you sacrifice yourself solely for the benefit of yourself it could be considered selfish.
    You are equivocating as to the word "benefit." You cannot "benefit" yourself (in the sense you use it here) by an act of self-sacrifice. The nature of self sacrifice is forgoing a benefit to the self in favor of benefit for another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Whether it be for religious reasons or something else.
    Like the thought that, self sacrifice gets you an automatic ticket to heaven.
    Well, that's a pretty logical reason, isn't it?

  3. #223
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Hey now...

    Mentioning Frank Lunz, while dismissing his contributions to the science of propaganda, makes me instantly suspiscious.

    Would you please elaborate on your apparent position in this regard?

    Because I think its far more relevant to our current political situation than you apparently do.

    Do you have some evidence that cognitive linquistics is imaginary or otherwise invalid/irrelevant to how we form the beliefs we hold?

    I'm genuinely curious about your take on this, because your comment seems to indicate that you are aware of some peoples' concerns about his practices, but consider them invalid.

    I would LOVE to discuss this.
    And also, are you aware that the correct person to have used in your comment is George Lakoff?

    Lunz does Republican "messaging"

    Lakoff is known for the concept of "framing" issues, and his insistence that Dems learn how the right does this in order for them to compete.

    Just askin'.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  4. #224
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    This is straying pretty far from a discussion of Randianism. A Randian values other people, including family only insofar as they are pleasing or beneficial to one's self. The Randian position of self-primacy is only logical if setting the self as the focal point can be justified. It cannot.
    Not straying at all.
    It's a valid question, if you sacrificing for another, causes those closest to you, to be in a greater state harm than the person you sacrificed for, then it is not truly a moral or logical position.

    You have caused more harm by sacrificing yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Why is another person less valuable than one's own self? This is arbitrary.
    Precisely because it is arbitrary.
    It is my life and if I chose to dispose of it, it should be my decision in total, without moral pressure to do so.

    Sorry but I do not believe in egalitarianism.
    Not only is my biological directive, it is my personal view.

    To add though, if we go the egalitarian route, what is gained by a person sacrificing his/her life for another.
    All is equal and it wouldn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You are equivocating as to the word "benefit." You cannot "benefit" yourself (in the sense you use it here) by an act of self-sacrifice. The nature of self sacrifice is forgoing a benefit to the self in favor of benefit for another.
    You can benefit yourself in an act of self sacrifice, the emotional feeling before death or the believe you will be rewarded is the benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Well, that's a pretty logical reason, isn't it?
    Only if you believe it to be true, but I think that contradicts the teachings of most religions, so it would backfire.
    In other words, it's suicide.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 04-08-11 at 04:16 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #225
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    I'd rather see a good shoot 'em up than fall asleep.
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  6. #226
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Hey now...

    Mentioning Frank Lunz, while dismissing his contributions to the science of propaganda, makes me instantly suspiscious.

    Would you please elaborate on your apparent position in this regard?

    Because I think its far more relevant to our current political situation than you apparently do.

    Do you have some evidence that cognitive linquistics is imaginary or otherwise invalid/irrelevant to how we form the beliefs we hold?

    I'm genuinely curious about your take on this, because your comment seems to indicate that you are aware of some peoples' concerns about his practices, but consider them invalid.

    I would LOVE to discuss this.
    Sorry, I have no stomach for hearing the merits for propaganda.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  7. #227
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not straying at all.
    It's a valid question, if you sacrificing for another, causes those closest to you, to be in a greater state harm than the person you sacrificed for, then it is not truly a moral or logical position.

    You have caused more harm by sacrificing yourself.
    It is straying from the topic. Too far. We're discussing the failures of Randianism not the merits of every other school of thought.

    The fact is that Randians are unique in their equation of selfishness to morality, and they accomplish this by intellectual sleight of hand by conflating the terms "self-interest" and "selfishness." There is no coherence to it. You can raise questions about other beliefs systems, but this is a distraction tactic to draw the discussion away from the complete intellectual bankruptcy of the Randian system.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 04-08-11 at 02:51 PM.

  8. #228
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It is straying from the topic. Too far. We're discussing the failures of Randianism not the merits of every other school of thought.
    A comparison must be made if we are to evaluate if a philosophy is good or not.

    I find that the notion of complete altruism or selflessness is stupid and that it's loudest proponents only do so for their benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The fact is that Randians are unique in their equation of selfishness to morality, and they accomplish this by intellectual sleight of hand by conflating the terms "self-interest" and "selfishness." There is no coherence to it. You can raise questions about other beliefs systems, but this is a distraction tactic to draw the discussion away from the complete intellectual bankruptcy of the Randian system.
    I think it is the mentality of a slave, because all it takes is one cunning individual, not devoted to selflessness, to trick the rest into doing his/her bidding.
    Just making a comparison of the 2 and showing that if I had to chose one or the other, I'd still chose mine for obvious reasons.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 04-08-11 at 02:55 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #229
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It is straying from the topic. Too far. We're discussing the failures of Randianism not the merits of every other school of thought.

    The fact is that Randians are unique in their equation of selfishness to morality, and they accomplish this by intellectual sleight of hand by conflating the terms "self-interest" and "selfishness." There is no coherence to it. You can raise questions about other beliefs systems, but this is a distraction tactic to draw the discussion away from the complete intellectual bankruptcy of the Randian system.
    no, the discussion is centered around your failed premises.

  10. #230
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    no, the discussion is centered around your failed premises.
    I have yet to see it shown that the premise that other people than oneself matter morally is a failure. Moreover, that same premise serves as the basis of every other religion and ethical theory in existence, which places a tremendous burden on the Randian. Extraordinary claims like Rand's require extraordinary proofs, and Rand couldn't deliver those.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 04-08-11 at 03:01 PM.

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