View Poll Results: Will you go see the Atlas Shrugged movie?

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Thread: Atlas Shrugged movie

  1. #211
    Only Losers H8 Capitalism
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Oh, I know exactly what I mean when I say "Randian." The term "Objectivism" is a misnomer. As I discussed earlier there is nothing objective about so-called Objectivism. It would be more accurate to call it Subjectivism, really, since it is only concerned with subjective experience of the individual in determining morality, and takes no account of the world outside one's own self.

    Regardless, the term "Randian" adequately describes those who follow the dogma of Ayn Rand.
    You obviously don't if you consider it a dogma or subjective. You're one of those people who label's people rather than accepting the term one has accepted aren't you? How contemptible.

    "Pro-abortionist" "Darwinist" "Evolutionist" "Randian" "Tea-Bagger" etc...
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  2. #212
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    You obviously don't if you consider it a dogma or subjective. You're one of those people who label's people rather than accepting the term one has accepted aren't you? How contemptible.

    "Pro-abortionist" "Darwinist" "Evolutionist" "Randian" "Tea-Bagger" etc...
    I tend to label people based on the most accurate descriptor. "Objectivism" is hardly objective, but it is based on the teaching of Rand, hence an accurate label for its adherents is "Randian." It is, in fact, subjective in nature because of its emphasis on the self as the basis for morality. Moreover, the Randian school of thought is dogmatic in nature, as there is an orthodox viewpoint that must be adhered to without variation.

    As for other terms, I will admit I've labeled people who oppose abortion "anti-choice," and I've discussed elsewhere that I prefer the term "undocumented immigrant" to "illegal." Words have power, and I use them as such. I refuse to dignify Randians with an appellation that implies that they are in any way "objective," since nothing could be further from the truth. If that hurts your feelings, perhaps you should take a cue from John Galt and withhold your brilliance in protest.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 04-07-11 at 11:40 AM.

  3. #213
    free market communist
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I love it when people give their own analysis of Rand's philosophy and then someone else cries fowl
    In many cases, being a "libertarian" works on the level of true believer every bit as much a part of identity as the most fervent religionist.

    I find it amusing how so many who pose as championers of individual rights lack any sense of individuality when it comes to their idealoguery.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  4. #214
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    In many cases, being a "libertarian" works on the level of true believer every bit as much a part of identity as the most fervent religionist.

    I find it amusing how so many who pose as championers of individual rights lack any sense of individuality when it comes to their idealoguery.
    Kind of like goth people? I am so individual, I am like everyone else?

    Nah, I don't think thats fair. The goal isn't, as far as I can tell, to be different and special, but its just people who see things a certain way.

  5. #215
    Only Losers H8 Capitalism
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I tend to label people based on the most accurate descriptor. "Objectivism" is hardly objective, but it is based on the teaching of Rand, hence an accurate label for its adherents is "Randian." It is, in fact, subjective in nature because of its emphasis on the self as the basis for morality.
    That doesn't in any way make the objectivist morality subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Moreover, the Randian school of thought is dogmatic in nature, as there is an orthodox viewpoint that must be adhered to without variation.
    What are you talking about? Even if you were right (which you're blatantly not), that would not constitute a dogma. You fail to understand the word, among others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    As for other terms, I will admit I've labeled people who oppose abortion "anti-choice," and I've discussed elsewhere that I prefer the term "undocumented immigrant" to "illegal." Words have power, and I use them as such.
    Yeah okay Frank Luntz, words have meanings. Words misused have power over only fools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I refuse to dignify Randians with an appellation that implies that they are in any way "objective," since nothing could be further from the truth. If that hurts your feelings, perhaps you should take a cue from John Galt and withhold your brilliance in protest.
    My feelings cannot be hurt by fools beating on straw men, address one of my positions accurately and you have a shot at that. For I have tons of experience with people who either failed to understand or misrepresent Ayn Rand.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 04-07-11 at 11:52 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  6. #216
    Sage

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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    No. I read the book years ago, and truthfully... I was not impressed. I think Ayn Rand is highly overrated.
    I agree, I tried reading one of her books and found it to be boring, and it was difficult to determine her philosophy.

  7. #217
    Only Losers H8 Capitalism
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    I agree, I tried reading one of her books and found it to be boring, and it was difficult to determine her philosophy.
    I actually find the Fountainhead VERY boring. But her philosophy interested me enough to give Atlas Shrugged a shot. Try reading some of her essays if you want to "determine her philosophy."

    I highly recommend "Philosophy, Who needs it?"
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  8. #218
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Yes, it is. You make the distinction yourself when you say, "Self interest is selfishness without the wanton disregard for others." Selfishness implies a self interested disregard for others. Contrariwise, the "self interested" behavior of a saint can hardly be considered selfish, nor would it meet with Rand's approval.
    True but it's dependent on what you value and if it makes any logical sense to sacrifice for a stranger.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Including yourself, it would seem. Objectivism and libertarianism are not synonymous. Rand herself was not overly fond of libertarians.
    They are in the same group, under the umbrella term of libertarianism.
    Something I disagree with Rand about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    A self interested person can also be selfless, as I discussed above. A Randian is both self interested and selfish, in the morally pejorative sense. A Randian does not place value on others in their own right.
    I still disagree.
    Why should one person sacrifice them self for a stranger?
    If we suspend thinking, it seems like a good act but when we analyze the potential results of such behavior it can be just as selfish or dumb to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If one finds oneself needing to rewrite Rand to make her ideas palatable, perhaps one should reconsider whether or not one truly is a Randian, shouldn't one?
    I don't agree with Rand in total but I do tend to think the reckless selflessness is just as bad an reckless self interest.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #219
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    True but it's dependent on what you value and if it makes any logical sense to sacrifice for a stranger.
    Right. Valuing yourself at the expense of others is called "selfishness," so if one has such a value system we call them "selfish." People who value others more than themselves are being logical when they sacrifice for others, and this is morally laudable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    They are in the same group, under the umbrella term of libertarianism.
    Something I disagree with Rand about.
    That's fair. I agree there is some overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I still disagree.
    Why should one person sacrifice them self for a stranger?
    If we suspend thinking, it seems like a good act but when we analyze the potential results of such behavior it can be just as selfish or dumb to do so.
    Please cease conflating the terms "selfish" and "self interested." We both agree that they describe different things, so it gets confusing. You might think it is dumb to sacrifice oneself for a stranger, and it is "self interested" in a strict sense, but we can both agree that self sacrifice is the very definition of unselfish.

    Why is it good to value others over ones own self? There are a variety of rationales to explain this. I'm not trying to convert anybody. You either find this proposition persuasive or you do not. If you do not then you are selfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't agree with Rand in total but I do tend to think the reckless selflessness is just as bad an reckless self interest.
    I don't think anybody is advocating reckless. I'm talking about reasoned selflessness. Reason is what separates humanity from animals. The animal nature compels one to act in their own selfish interest, with no concern for others. But true reason dictates that we aspire to a higher good, and that every action we perform is part of a universal whole.

    What Randians fail to account for is the fact that the self really is an arbitrary point of view. Just because your subjective experience is what you personally feel, what makes it more valuable than the subjective experience of another? Rationally, all subjective experiences (all people) should be given equal moral weight, whether they be one's self or another one's self.

  10. #220
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Yeah okay Frank Luntz, words have meanings. Words misused have power over only fools
    Hey now...

    Mentioning Frank Lunz, while dismissing his contributions to the science of propaganda, makes me instantly suspiscious.

    Would you please elaborate on your apparent position in this regard?

    Because I think its far more relevant to our current political situation than you apparently do.

    Do you have some evidence that cognitive linquistics is imaginary or otherwise invalid/irrelevant to how we form the beliefs we hold?

    I'm genuinely curious about your take on this, because your comment seems to indicate that you are aware of some peoples' concerns about his practices, but consider them invalid.

    I would LOVE to discuss this.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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