View Poll Results: Will you go see the Atlas Shrugged movie?

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Thread: Atlas Shrugged movie

  1. #201
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't think libertarianism is great, specifically because it fails to account for the human equation. It assumes that, given freedom, people are going to be responsible in the use of said freedom and I think that's an absurd idea. Most people, given half a chance, will take advantage of any system which allows them to do so. Even those with the greatest claimed morality are going to do things that will better their own situation, even to the detriment of others. That's the biggest downfall of the system, that it doesn't impose controls on those who would play the system and ultimately harm others for their own benefit.

    I'm all for personal responsibility, but I think that, for many, it needs to be imposed from above, rather than assumed from a level playing field.
    In the bold, that isn't true.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  2. #202
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I fail to follow your reasoning. But yes I am self interested in the sense that I do want to live my life and be fairly successful at it, but as far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with our conversation.
    It does, if you are self interested, you should have no problem with Objectivism.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Starting yet another charity to do the same thing other charities are doing, yet be less efficient compared to just giving to another charity due to a separate bill for administrative costs, plus time taken away to take care of the office stuff rather than doing something positive seems impractical and inefficient as compared to helping habitat for humanity with direct labor (not that I do that particular charity, but to make a point).
    A lot of charities specialize, that's what makes them more efficient, even with the administration costs.

    I know you don't believe that charity will serve the needs of all the needy and I won't make the contention that it will.
    You have to realize though, the government programs do not serve all the needy (that's why charities still exist) and the government programs typically serve those that are not needy.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #203
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    In the bold, that isn't true.
    Please explain, Harry. I feel that is a legitimate assumption from what I gather.

  4. #204
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Please explain, Harry. I feel that is a legitimate assumption from what I gather.
    Personally, I have no pretense what so ever of most people using their freedom responsibly.

    Society needs irresponsible people, not only as examples but people need to fail.
    The great motivators for improvement in life are unhappiness and dissatisfaction.

    Failure and irresponsibility can give birth to new ideas on how a person can proceed with their life, in a more correct manner, but by no means perfect.
    Although I don't expect everyone to succeed.

    In total, it's a gradual evolution to better.
    That is it's most fatal flaw.
    Humans are impatient, they demand change now, even when it will hurt them in the long run.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #205
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Ah, ok, thanks. I've never met two conservatives alike. Seriously, I mean that. There are common ideologies from both sides of the spectrum; liberals, conservatives, all seem to be fluid to some degree depending on the static issue. Let's take a glaring example of an issue people generally think has one ideological tag assigned to it. Legalizing weed. As a conservative, one might think that conservatives are diametrically opposed to legalizing pot, however, I'm a conservative and I am not against it. Conversely, almost all, if not all liberals I know are not against it either. Does it make me liberal? The answer is no. It makes me a conservative who is for legalizing marijuana.

    If I could nail down a single phrase that describes liberals, and conservatives, IMO, I would say something like this. Conservatives tend to think in absolutes, meaning, something is either good, or it's bad, whereas Liberals tend to think in potentialities; something could be good, or it could be bad. Now, when you look at this, and really take a close look, they're not that far off are they? Conservatives tend to throw out exceptions when reasoning, and liberals actively look for the exception to influence their reasoning. Example, the death penalty. Conservatives, place no rational value to the exception that some innocent people will be executed, and favor the death penalty. Liberals, place rational value to the exception of innocent life lost, and reason to themselves that because innocent life can be lost, that the death penalty should be abolished.

    What I'm trying to illustrate is that because of the above, I am coming to realize that political ideologies, and socio-ideologies are more flexible than most people think. Further, an ideology can be diagnosed without any indication of political, or sociological philosophy from the subject. It is my contention that ideology is a combination of one's genes and their environment, and is more about how we reason, and react to everything, than simply how we view a political, or sociological issue.

    For instance, I think a test can be devised that proves my point, if one assumes that the above notion that conservatives think in black and white, and liberals in grey. Without any questions on any specific political, or sociological issues, one could tell by how the participants respond whether they are liberal, or conservative, simply by how they reason what is good, or what is bad. I think that with a great deal of accuracy, a double blind study could show that simply by their answers to non political, or sociological questions we could predict a subjects political ideology.

    Before the test, the interviewers would determine the subjects ideology, and record the data. Now the testing begins, and the test scorers would not know the results of the prior interviews, and would score the tests based on multiple choice questions to various questions that relate to a black and white answering style to one that allows for grey. My guess is that conservatives will mostly choose black and white answers, and liberals will mostly choose grey. The tricky part is devising testing questions that can have multiple choice answers that are correct but appear as though only one is correct to the test taker..


    Tim-
    Excellent post, Tim. Very thoughtful. I think you are definitely onto something. I've always thought of it as 'degrees of dualism'. There are those who see the world as being divided between the forces of good and those of evil. There are others who think in terms of everyone being driven by or drawn to a variety of those forces; that we are all a blend of yin and yang. Are these opposing forces, or complementary ones?

    I would suggest that this distinction that you are drawing between the different mindsets of conservatives and liberals is about just that philosophical conundrum. Conservatives tend to see the dualism at work in the world as a battle between opposing forces of good and evil, one in which good must triumph. Liberals tend to think of the world as being made up of a balance of the different forces at work, sometimes where the balance is deemed positive, for the benefit of people, sometimes that balance seems absent. At such times intervention may be needed to restore balance.

    Of course the problem with these theories, and the easy division of the world into conservative and liberal, is that the world isn't composed of conservatives and liberals. I suspect that any meaningful definition of someone as one of the two could apply to barely half of the world's population. Radicals, religious zealots of all kinds, anarchists and authoritarians; none of these fall easily into a dualist world made up of conservative and liberal. How do we understand the motivation behind their behaviours and thought processes?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  6. #206
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It does, if you are self interested, you should have no problem with Objectivism.
    Like any human I am a mixture of selfishness, selflessness, neutral, and ignorant. I am self interested in some aspects of my life and not so much in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A lot of charities specialize, that's what makes them more efficient, even with the administration costs.

    I know you don't believe that charity will serve the needs of all the needy and I won't make the contention that it will.
    You have to realize though, the government programs do not serve all the needy (that's why charities still exist) and the government programs typically serve those that are not needy.
    I agree that government programs do not serve all of the needy, which is why I support a continual refocus of efforts as economic conditions change (and they are always changing). However, I think its our best shot, over and above charities. Lastly, I am not the entrepeneurial type, I hate personal risk and so I am not the new charity starting type anyway. Ultimately though, it does not mean that my giving is somehow less valuable like you seemed to want to contend if I read you correctly.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-07-11 at 07:09 AM.

  7. #207
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    Guy Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Selfish is such an emotionally laden term, it's not worth using.
    Yes, it is. You make the distinction yourself when you say, "Self interest is selfishness without the wanton disregard for others." Selfishness implies a self interested disregard for others. Contrariwise, the "self interested" behavior of a saint can hardly be considered selfish, nor would it meet with Rand's approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Objectivism, like any form of libertarianism (including libertarian socialist) is not easy for most people to understand.
    Including yourself, it would seem. Objectivism and libertarianism are not synonymous. Rand herself was not overly fond of libertarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A self interested person values other people, not for the monetary or material benefits they get from them, but for what makes the person.
    A self interested person can also be selfless, as I discussed above. A Randian is both self interested and selfish, in the morally pejorative sense. A Randian does not place value on others in their own right.

    If one finds oneself needing to rewrite Rand to make her ideas palatable, perhaps one should reconsider whether or not one truly is a Randian, shouldn't one?

  8. #208
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Yes, it is. You make the distinction yourself when you say, "Self interest is selfishness without the wanton disregard for others." Selfishness implies a self interested disregard for others. Contrariwise, the "self interested" behavior of a saint can hardly be considered selfish, nor would it meet with Rand's approval.



    Including yourself, it would seem. Objectivism and libertarianism are not synonymous. Rand herself was not overly fond of libertarians.



    A self interested person can also be selfless, as I discussed above. A Randian is both self interested and selfish, in the morally pejorative sense. A Randian does not place value on others in their own right.

    If one finds oneself needing to rewrite Rand to make her ideas palatable, perhaps one should reconsider whether or not one truly is a Randian, shouldn't one?
    Note: No such thing as a Randian and she despised the suggestion of that term as well. "Objectivist" works, use that.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #209
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Note: No such thing as a Randian and she despised the suggestion of that term as well. "Objectivist" works, use that.
    Oh, I know exactly what I mean when I say "Randian." The term "Objectivism" is a misnomer. As I discussed earlier there is nothing objective about so-called Objectivism. It would be more accurate to call it Subjectivism, really, since it is only concerned with subjective experience of the individual in determining morality, and takes no account of the world outside one's own self.

    Regardless, the term "Randian" adequately describes those who follow the dogma of Ayn Rand.

  10. #210
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    I love it when people give their own analysis of Rand's philosophy and then someone else cries fowl because that wasn't something Rand herself would have agreed with. The appropriate answer should be 'no ****, I am not using Rand's perspective because I disagree with that perspective"

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