View Poll Results: Will you go see the Atlas Shrugged movie?

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Thread: Atlas Shrugged movie

  1. #161
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If that's the case, then the sky is the limit on whatever you want to do.
    I hope you can accept the responsibility for the good and the bad that is done in the name of common morality.
    Precisely, the sky is the limit. And yes, I accept my failures and successes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Actions speak louder than words.
    I can sit here all day and talk about what I think the government needs to do for other people, doesn't make me moral at all.

    I believe that the most revealing thing about a non government charity society is, that it reveals much more about "the people" and they don't want to face reality of who they really are.
    Are you making the assumption that I do not privately donate time or money? (and thanks for reminding me, I need to give some to this forum)

    As I said, both are required, personal action and societal considerations. Simply giving to charity is always a bandaid to fundamental problems that create the need for charity in the first place and at the same time we need to do things personally because its an aspect of being a good person (but not the only aspect, which you seem to contend)
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-06-11 at 03:13 PM.

  2. #162
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Are you making the assumption that I do not privately donate time or money? (and thanks for reminding me, I need to give some to this forum)
    I'm directly saying that you will also be forced to face that you are a self interested person.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    As I said, both are required, personal action and societal considerations. Simply giving to charity is always a bandaid to fundamental problems that create the need for charity in the first place and at the same time we need to do things personally because its an aspect of being a good person (but not the only aspect, which you seem to contend)
    Then do more than give, do something.
    There is nothing preventing you from starting a charity or foundation to do something to directly alleviate the problems of the world.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 04-06-11 at 03:18 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #163
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    One of the most basic considerations of morality is in how we treat others, specifically in a non selfish or harmful manner. The idea that one can be selfish and moral is a paradox.
    Ayn Rand and her idea of egoism is quite controversial. Yet, I imagine she was mostly right. Altruism is basically living your life for the sake of other people. You've heard the terms "nice guys finish last" and "the good die young." Well, they're true and I think Rand was trying to point that why they're true. When does self-preservation become selfishness?

  4. #164
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ahh, there were two assertions I made in that comment and I guess I picked the wrong one.

    I base it on observations. For example, I forget who, but there are a few congress people and senators which love to hand out ayn rand books to freshmen. Also there was the chair of the fed, appointed by conservatives who was an ayn rand desciple. Several people on this forum idolize her and her ideology, generally they are on the more libertarian side of conservatism. lots of little observations like that, granted the more I think about it, the more examples I will be able to dredge out of my brain.
    There is no such thing as the "libertarian side of conservatism."

  5. #165
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm directly saying that you will also be forced to face that you are a self interested person.
    I fail to follow your reasoning. But yes I am self interested in the sense that I do want to live my life and be fairly successful at it, but as far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with our conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then do more than give, do something.
    There is nothing preventing you from starting a charity or foundation to do something to directly alleviate the problems of the world.
    Starting yet another charity to do the same thing other charities are doing, yet be less efficient compared to just giving to another charity due to a separate bill for administrative costs, plus time taken away to take care of the office stuff rather than doing something positive seems impractical and inefficient as compared to helping habitat for humanity with direct labor (not that I do that particular charity, but to make a point).

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    When does self-preservation become selfishness?
    When others are harmed by your actions. The way I see it, there are three positions. Selfishness (which is evil), a neutral position (which is neither evil nor good), and selflessness (which is good).
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-06-11 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #166
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    When others are harmed by your actions. The way I see it, there are three positions. Selfishness (which is evil), a neutral position (which is neither evil nor good), and selflessness (which is good).
    FAILURE. I'm sure you meant to say when people are harmed by your INaction. Selfishness, as Rand proposed, did not entail stealing or committing fraud for the sake of personal gain. Ayn Rand did not support the actions of Mr. Potter because Mr. Potter stole for his own self-interest. You really have to expand your argument of selfishness harming others. Objectivists and Libertarians strongly support the idea of the individual doing whatever they may wish to do so long as it doesn't harm another person. Therefore, stealing or committing fraud for your own selfish gain is morally represensible. But refusing to give to charity for whatever reason is not.

  7. #167
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    There is no such thing as the "libertarian side of conservatism."
    I disagree. Libertarianism as a concept is great, but it fails to account for the human equation sufficiently.

    At some level, rights will always get trampled. Can a 5 year old contract? Do we limit rights of the insane, and how do we go about deciding who is insane? Libertarianism doesn’t have an adequate solution for these complex sets of issues. Conservatism does.

    On many issues, I lean libertarian, but ultimately, I recognize that rights don’t matter if nobody cares to defend them. So when we hit an impasse on issues where the vast majority would prefer to not protect that right, forcing them to protect that one right jeopardizes all our rights as the vast majority no longer cares to defend that form of government. The better solution is in these areas where government are allowed to trample rights, to limit their scope as much as possible. States can block things the fed can’t. Counties have even more power then states, Cities more than counties, etc, etc.

    That is what I call the conservative side of libertarianism.

  8. #168
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    FAILURE. I'm sure you meant to say when people are harmed by your INaction. Selfishness, as Rand proposed, did not entail stealing or committing fraud for the sake of personal gain. Ayn Rand did not support the actions of Mr. Potter because Mr. Potter stole for his own self-interest. You really have to expand your argument of selfishness harming others. Objectivists and Libertarians strongly support the idea of the individual doing whatever they may wish to do so long as it doesn't harm another person. Therefore, stealing or committing fraud for your own selfish gain is morally represensible. But refusing to give to charity for whatever reason is not.
    You are correct I should have made that addition, to some degree, disregard for one's follow human can be evil. Its highly situational and perspective based though and the range is anywhere from sociopathic to apathetic to uninformed. However, I am not willing to discuss it from Rand's perspective, but my own as I think my own is correct (as a general tendancy, pretty much everyone views their own perspective as correct), so while it may fail from Rand's perspective, frankly, I don't care.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-06-11 at 04:46 PM.

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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    One of the most basic considerations of morality is in how we treat others, specifically in a non selfish or harmful manner. The idea that one can be selfish and moral is a paradox.

    Only by people who define morality as "how much we can get others to give us".

  10. #170
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Only by people who define morality as "how much we can get others to give us".
    Given that what you just stated is a selfish attitude, I see no cause to modify my statement.

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