View Poll Results: Will you go see the Atlas Shrugged movie?

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Thread: Atlas Shrugged movie

  1. #151
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Well I was referring to your notion that she heavily influenced modern conservativism. Yes, I know Limbaugh, Hannity love her work, but I wanted to know why YOU thought she had a major influence? Since you brought it up, do you really believe that the idea that one can be selfish and moral is a paradox? I would to hear your ideas on this.


    Tim-
    Ahh, there were two assertions I made in that comment and I guess I picked the wrong one.

    I base it on observations. For example, I forget who, but there are a few congress people and senators which love to hand out ayn rand books to freshmen. Also there was the chair of the fed, appointed by conservatives who was an ayn rand desciple. Several people on this forum idolize her and her ideology, generally they are on the more libertarian side of conservatism. lots of little observations like that, granted the more I think about it, the more examples I will be able to dredge out of my brain.

  2. #152
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    So essentially protecting the wealthy from the poor, each other, and their foreign counterparts.

    Can ya give us any examples where this kind of paradise actually exists?
    America, or do you not have police and law courts in your state?
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  3. #153
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ahh, there were two assertions I made in that comment and I guess I picked the wrong one.

    I base it on observations. For example, I forget who, but there are a few congress people and senators which love to hand out ayn rand books to freshmen. Also there was the chair of the fed, appointed by conservatives who was an ayn rand desciple. Several people on this forum idolize her and her ideology, generally they are on the more libertarian side of conservatism. lots of little observations like that, granted the more I think about it, the more examples I will be able to dredge out of my brain.
    Ah, ok, thanks. I've never met two conservatives alike. Seriously, I mean that. There are common ideologies from both sides of the spectrum; liberals, conservatives, all seem to be fluid to some degree depending on the static issue. Let's take a glaring example of an issue people generally think has one ideological tag assigned to it. Legalizing weed. As a conservative, one might think that conservatives are diametrically opposed to legalizing pot, however, I'm a conservative and I am not against it. Conversely, almost all, if not all liberals I know are not against it either. Does it make me liberal? The answer is no. It makes me a conservative who is for legalizing marijuana.

    If I could nail down a single phrase that describes liberals, and conservatives, IMO, I would say something like this. Conservatives tend to think in absolutes, meaning, something is either good, or it's bad, whereas Liberals tend to think in potentialities; something could be good, or it could be bad. Now, when you look at this, and really take a close look, they're not that far off are they? Conservatives tend to throw out exceptions when reasoning, and liberals actively look for the exception to influence their reasoning. Example, the death penalty. Conservatives, place no rational value to the exception that some innocent people will be executed, and favor the death penalty. Liberals, place rational value to the exception of innocent life lost, and reason to themselves that because innocent life can be lost, that the death penalty should be abolished.

    What I'm trying to illustrate is that because of the above, I am coming to realize that political ideologies, and socio-ideologies are more flexible than most people think. Further, an ideology can be diagnosed without any indication of political, or sociological philosophy from the subject. It is my contention that ideology is a combination of one's genes and their environment, and is more about how we reason, and react to everything, than simply how we view a political, or sociological issue.

    For instance, I think a test can be devised that proves my point, if one assumes that the above notion that conservatives think in black and white, and liberals in grey. Without any questions on any specific political, or sociological issues, one could tell by how the participants respond whether they are liberal, or conservative, simply by how they reason what is good, or what is bad. I think that with a great deal of accuracy, a double blind study could show that simply by their answers to non political, or sociological questions we could predict a subjects political ideology.

    Before the test, the interviewers would determine the subjects ideology, and record the data. Now the testing begins, and the test scorers would not know the results of the prior interviews, and would score the tests based on multiple choice questions to various questions that relate to a black and white answering style to one that allows for grey. My guess is that conservatives will mostly choose black and white answers, and liberals will mostly choose grey. The tricky part is devising testing questions that can have multiple choice answers that are correct but appear as though only one is correct to the test taker..


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  4. #154
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Ah, ok, thanks. I've never met two conservatives alike. Seriously, I mean that. There are common ideologies from both sides of the spectrum; liberals, conservatives, all seem to be fluid to some degree depending on the static issue. Let's take a glaring example of an issue people generally think has one ideological tag assigned to it. Legalizing weed. As a conservative, one might think that conservatives are diametrically opposed to legalizing pot, however, I'm a conservative and I am not against it. Conversely, almost all, if not all liberals I know are not against it either. Does it make me liberal? The answer is no. It makes me a conservative who is for legalizing marijuana.
    Oh I know, thats an inherent danger in speaking in generalities, there will always be exceptions. However, in this case, I was focusing on the movers, shakers, and thought makers for that very reason (people on this forum tend to be more intelligent than your average bear).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    If I could nail down a single phrase that describes liberals, and conservatives, IMO, I would say something like this. Conservatives tend to think in absolutes, meaning, something is either good, or it's bad, whereas Liberals tend to think in potentialities; something could be good, or it could be bad. Now, when you look at this, and really take a close look, they're not that far off are they? Conservatives tend to throw out exceptions when reasoning, and liberals actively look for the exception to influence their reasoning. Example, the death penalty. Conservatives, place no rational value to the exception that some innocent people will be executed, and favor the death penalty. Liberals, place rational value to the exception of innocent life lost, and reason to themselves that because innocent life can be lost, that the death penalty should be abolished.
    I completely agree with this. As a liberal, I tend to give complicated answers to simple questions because I dislike reducing complexity because I feel like its reducing accuracy. And that tendancy is something I noticed about people a long time ago.

  5. #155
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Fake libertarian
    That (for each category) should added to the "Lean" selection for all those that fantasize about being politically what they are not.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #156
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    My morality demands it of me and everyone
    Morality is like a religion, stripped of the ceremony, figureheads and nifty stories.
    It's quite unusual that we find it appropriate that we separate state and religion but we still demand that people follow something just as subjective.

    I honestly think that the sincere commitment to moral beliefs, would be shown, if you had to be responsible for it yourself on a regular basis.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Morality is like a religion, stripped of the ceremony, figureheads and nifty stories.
    It's quite unusual that we find it appropriate that we separate state and religion but we still demand that people follow something just as subjective.

    I honestly think that the sincere commitment to moral beliefs, would be shown, if you had to be responsible for it yourself on a regular basis.
    While I fully appreciate a firewall between church and state. I fully expect and want people to vote their moral views, even if derived from religion and to seek a society where they can see those morals established, even if those morals are different from mine. That doesn't give me any discomfort at all, because of the essential fact that we need to seek a common morality in which to establish and conduct ourselves in society. We can do so without the more formal trappings of religion as we have shown by the fact that this country is healthy in that respect.

    And yes Harry, I do things on the basis of morality alone already, however, in my moral view certain results are moral, not just actions, and I cannot achieve those results alone.

  8. #158
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    While I fully appreciate a firewall between church and state. I fully expect and want people to vote their moral views, even if derived from religion and to seek a society where they can see those morals established, even if those morals are different from mine. That doesn't give me any discomfort at all, because of the essential fact that we need to seek a common morality in which to establish and conduct ourselves in society. We can do so without the more formal trappings of religion as we have shown by the fact that this country is healthy in that respect.
    Well I'm quite annoyed that some people think they need to decide my personal moral convictions for me.
    I'm fully capable of giving and helping with causes that are important to me.

    I think there should a separation between your morality and state.


    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    And yes Harry, I do things on the basis of morality alone already, however, in my moral view certain results are moral, not just actions, and I cannot achieve those results alone.
    I think there is a vast contradiction that lies in your words, nothing outright but something I keep picking up.

    Either there are enough "moral" people to help further your beliefs or there aren't even though, oh so many profess to be.
    If so many of you actually had these high and mighty notions of helping humanity, it wouldn't take prompting from a "noble" authority to see them through.

    So basically, yes I am putting into question the sincerity of these moral beliefs.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #159
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Well I'm quite annoyed that some people think they need to decide my personal moral convictions for me.
    I'm fully capable of giving and helping with causes that are important to me.

    I think there should a separation between your morality and state.
    I think such a saparation is impossible. A moral point of view is fundamental in how one regards society and societal issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think there is a vast contradiction that lies in your words, nothing outright but something I keep picking up.

    Either there are enough "moral" people to help further your beliefs or there aren't even though, oh so many profess to be.
    If so many of you actually had these high and mighty notions of helping humanity, it wouldn't take prompting from a "noble" authority to see them through.

    So basically, yes I am putting into question the sincerity of these moral beliefs.
    You may call them into question if you wish, thats fine with me. However I feel unmoved by your questioning. Ultimately though, I think we just view morality from different angles. I always do find it odd when people think the only expression of morality is personal action though rather than administrative types of considerations. Both are necessary.

  10. #160
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    Re: Atlas Shrugged movie

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think such a saparation is impossible. A moral point of view is fundamental in how one regards society and societal issues.
    If that's the case, then the sky is the limit on whatever you want to do.
    I hope you can accept the responsibility for the good and the bad that is done in the name of common morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You may call them into question if you wish, thats fine with me. However I feel unmoved by your questioning. Ultimately though, I think we just view morality from different angles. I always do find it odd when people think the only expression of morality is personal action though rather than administrative types of considerations. Both are necessary.
    Actions speak louder than words.
    I can sit here all day and talk about what I think the government needs to do for other people, doesn't make me moral at all.

    I believe that the most revealing thing about a non government charity society is, that it reveals much more about "the people" and they don't want to face reality of who they really are.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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